ReedSqueal
221 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:06 PM
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I've been sticking to learning TB recently but have run into sore jaw joint pain. Is this "normal" or maybe I am forcing it too hard? Could be that I am doing this in conjunction with holding a bullet mic, and trying too hard to get a tight cup. Sure sounds bad ass though when you get it!
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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FMWoodeye
130 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:29 PM
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Lucky for you I'm an oral surgeon, and I can tell you right now this is not "normal" nor is it necessarily an indication of pathology. More likely there is some inappropriate tension, probably in the temporomandibular area, OR some pre-existing temporomandibular joint syndrome (TMJ) that is being exacerbated by muscular tension when you play with the mic. I'll send you a bill.
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ReedSqueal
222 posts
Dec 15, 2011
10:12 PM
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Oh dayum - that's exactly what I was afraid of!
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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FMWoodeye
131 posts
Dec 15, 2011
11:35 PM
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But seriously, folks, you may be predisposed to some joint pain there and some extra tension pushes you over the threshold. Make an effort to relax. You may do other things in your life that contribute to the problem, too. Maybe you grind your teeth at night and such. It's probably an cumulative thing. And here I am, practicing medicine without a license....again.
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JInx
149 posts
Dec 15, 2011
11:37 PM
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It depends, are you an older feller? If so, then you just gonna have to deal and bust through it. I'm sure you know what I mean, times a ticken and all that.
If yer a youngster then you ought to go and have it checked out, preferably by a witch doctor, a make sure it's a good one.
I'm no expert, but I have had some aches and pains. Well, not that many really. I guess I've had my share, but I'm sure due some more. Right? It's gonna be winter soon.
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Frank
76 posts
Dec 16, 2011
4:41 AM
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Playing Tongue Blocked is ALL about a relaxed embouchure (easier said then done of course) BUT, true just the same!
The good news is, that since you are aware you have unnecessary tension going on - make the concentrated adjustments needed to stop your jaw from getting sore.
It takes ALONG TIME for (all) the muscles "brain muscle included" to be strong enough to do what they are told in a simple relaxed manner...Any tension or poor Breathing techniques will hurt the "pure pleasure" of playing TB.
You'll know your making progress when the bends begin "melting in your mouth" or to put it another way, the bends "happen almost effortlessly" thus a lot less stress on your jaw etc...
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2011 6:59 AM
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barbequebob
1785 posts
Dec 16, 2011
7:01 AM
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Sore jaw or sore embouchure is not just with tongue blocking alone as it does happen even with LP/LB/pucker method as well. It basically sounds like you're used to FORCING things to happen, so you put too much tension on yourself with that kind of rigidness and the only thing you do is make things NEEDLESSLY more difficult for yourself and too many players are guilty of doing exactly that.
In order to get the greatest mileage out of TB'ing, you have to be 100% FULLY RELAXED 24/7/365, and this is obviously NOT the case here and that maeans all of your facial, throat as well as chest muscles because FLEXIBILITY IS VERY IMPORTANT and when you play the way you're doing, you're making things tough for yourself.
Frank is right about this. Even with the LP/LB/pucker method, relaxation is extremely important as well so you can make any and all necessary adjustments on the fly and that's something the average player never really learns or understands very well, especially if they're teaching themselves how to play.
Many of those same things Frank mentions also applies as well to the LP/LB/pucker technique as well.
Trying to force things to happen, which essentially is, in a politcally incorrect way of putting it, is what I refer to as the macho dumb ass technique and the average player is often guilty of doing that because they're trying to force things to happen and you need to stop that BAD habit IMMEDIATELY or you'll keep making things needlessly difficult for yourself forever.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Frank
78 posts
Dec 16, 2011
8:04 AM
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Bob mentions using "FORCE" and how many players believe this is what must be done to manipulate the harmonica into submission...and how destructive it is to actually play the harmonica that way.
That is very true and I think many players come to believe that lie by seeing a great pro player live and it does LOOK like the guy or gal is blowing their brains out, but in actuality that is not the case!
It just appears that way, they are playing lightly and the MIC and AMP are responding to their excellent technique. The coolest, fattest sounding licks you hear in a harp song are played with a light touch "not force"!
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2011 8:05 AM
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HawkeyeKane
558 posts
Dec 16, 2011
9:25 AM
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I've had problems with TMDS (temporomandibular displacement syndrome) for a few years now. Not with TB, but in general.
Started during a time when I was under a great deal of stress, and my dentist said I was clenching my teeth in my sleep. She gave me a bite guard to wear in my sleep. It helps. But it still gets sore from time to time. When it does, about the only thing I can do to temporarily relieve it is popping my jaw. But I can only do that every so often.
It hasn't really given me all that many problems with my playing, but it's made it nearly impossible for me to attempt jaw warbling. I still haven't worked much on learning to TB, so I'm hoping that once I get into it, this won't come back to bite me in the jaw.
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Hawkeye Kane
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ReedSqueal
223 posts
Dec 16, 2011
11:33 AM
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Wow, ok... great ideas/advice. Makes sense. Guilty of a lot of that, especially the forcing things and not relaxing. I am thinking back a few years ago when I first picked up the harp, I was having similar pain, sore jaw muscles and even headaches. 3 years of all pucker playing, now I don't have any of those issues -- I can honestly say I have play more relaxed.
Now with TB it's like starting over. I think trying to use and cup a bullet mic tightly is only complicating the pain issues at the moment. Maybe I should give the TB playing quite a bit more time without attempting mic cupping techniques at the same time. Or at least alternate TB, LP, mic cupping during practices.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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harpcrab
88 posts
Dec 16, 2011
11:41 AM
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@ Hawkeye- when you have episodes of soreness, wear your "occusal" gard (not "night" guard- day time use too) through out the day as well as at nite- ALL the time, expcept when eating or brushing.
Also try OTC anti-inflammatories, gentle jaw exercizes (in the shower- moist heat), soft diet, no gum chewing.
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Bluesharp- If you don't blow you suck...
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HawkeyeKane
559 posts
Dec 16, 2011
2:42 PM
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@harpcrab
I tried that for awhile. I didn't notice any improvement. I take daily meds that don't mix well with anti-inflammatories.
It kinda sucks. I'm 26 years old. I have a bad back, a straightened neck, knees that are becoming arthritic, kidney stones, TMDS, hypertension, and about 12% of my hair has gone gray. Something's wrong in the gene pool if I'm aging this fast at 26.
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Hawkeye Kane
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LSB
118 posts
Dec 16, 2011
4:14 PM
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Geeze, how long have you been at that desk job HK? At least 1/2 your problems sound work related.
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HawkeyeKane
560 posts
Dec 17, 2011
1:12 PM
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Five and half years. And yes, some of them most definitely are work related. But pretty much only the muscular and skeletal problems. Hypertension and kidney stones are triggered by stress and alcohol use. Both of which I'm limiting. But the bad back and straightened neck are from sitting on a chair with no back support day in and day out at my office. Knees are getting worse from chasing an 18 month old boy and performing at gigs in a manner that's reminiscent of Elwood Blues.
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Hawkeye Kane
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FMWoodeye
139 posts
Dec 17, 2011
5:10 PM
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Jeeze, Hawk...sorry to hear about your problems. Look at the bright side. At least you've got a cool name.
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HawkeyeKane
562 posts
Dec 19, 2011
7:43 AM
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Wish I had the medical knowledge of Hawkeye Pierce instead. LOL
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2011 7:44 AM
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SmokeJS
140 posts
Aug 05, 2013
8:27 AM
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Thought I might be alone with this ailment but apparently not. Have been focusing on tongue blocking techniques in recent months so that may be the cause. My dentist first made me one of the guards a few years ago so jaw pain is something I'm susceptibe to. If the harmonica solution is more relaxed playing my guess is that's easier said than done. I'm hoping just being aware is half the solution.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Aug 05, 2013 8:28 AM
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Kingley
2970 posts
Aug 05, 2013
8:44 AM
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It sounds like you're tensing up too much when you're playing. You need to play with a relaxed jaw. You're jaw should be as relaxed as when you're kissing your lover. Whether playing lip pursed or tongue blocked, you also need to not use too much breath force. Playing the harp requires no more hard breathing than talking does. Some people think tongue blocking is hard. it ain't. If you close your mouth and lightly touch your tongue against the back of your teeth. That's the kind of pressure you want. As with most things a little goes as long way. So to sum up, use a relaxed jaw, a gentle breath force and a feather light touch of the tongue. Then your problems should ease. If they don't then you need to go and see your doctor.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 05, 2013 8:45 AM
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Frank
2581 posts
Aug 05, 2013
11:15 AM
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The longer I play the same song over the years - the more I figure out how to play it with the least amount of struggle possible...
A song that I can pretty much nail today and seemingly breathe life into effortlessly...A year from now I'll discover an even more relaxed and easier way to perform and execute it.
So, if you can - stick with the same songs long enough and as the years speed by, you will notice significant progress and ease with how you approach the tune and play it.
It really is a TIME thing - that is literally impossible to rush the process.
Songs that I thought I had down cold - A year later, as my techniques improved. I now realize - I thought wrong...
I now know, that when I can easily breathe a cover tune or improvised tune into existence from beginning to end void of all tension while the harmonica responds in sympathy to my commands, a slight natural high will result, thus hinting that I am on the right track and getting closer to perfection :)
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mlefree
122 posts
Aug 06, 2013
10:48 AM
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Muscular tension is the enemy of any musician.
I seem to refer to this every time the issue of tension comes up, but its worth restating. Back when I was trying to learn to play guitar, I came across this interesting online teacher, Jamie Andreas, who taught, amongst other things, how to detect and remove muscular tension as you play.
He calls his technique, "Posing." Here is how it works. Stop in the middle when you are practicing a passage and hold your body position. Then going from head to foot examine your muscles for signs of tension. When you find one, make an effort to consciously relax whatever muscle structure you've so identified. When you've relaxed that muscle group, continue the exercise moving down to the feet.
After you've done this a few times, you will identify particular problem areas where you tend to commonly have this tension problem. Those are the areas that need special attention; areas where you know you need to make a conscious effort to relax before and during playing. Also, as you get used to performing this exercise you will be able to do it ~as~ you play, without stopping.
Squeal, in your case you know it's the jaw muscles that are causing the problem, so you should soon be able to zero in on how to relax them as you play.
One last thing. Some folks make a lot of musical "hay" using jaw flicking to quickly move from one hole to the next (e.g., Brendan Power." That would be a TMJ killer.
Good luck,
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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The Iceman
1069 posts
Aug 06, 2013
12:51 PM
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Once again Michelle offers great advice.
I work with students from day one on the relaxing of everything that doesn't contribute to the sound of a vibrating reed.
Pretend that at any given moment you have 10 units of energy that you can use.
If you play harmonica and raise your shoulders, you've just spent 2 units on tensing the muscles that raise your shoulders (2 wasted units). Relax those shoulders and 2 units go back into the "kitty".
Same goes for tightening the neck muscles, gripping the harmonica too tight, or even raising your eyebrows when you play.
It helps to look in a mirror and note everything you do that is created by a muscle tension (wasted energy). One by one, let them go.
The more energy credits in your "kitty", the more you can use to open your ears to actually hear what you are playing, as well as sending signals to only those muscles that are necessary to create the sounds you want.
Throat muscles gently pulsed open in pre yawn attitude, minimal hand/arm muscles, complete control of the tongue muscle, movement of the diaphragm and controlling that teeny tiny flap that allows air into your nasal passage are all that are needed.
If you play for a bit and find it hard to rotate your head on your neck while playing, you are wasting energy by tightening up.
Remember - you only got 10 units.
Use them wisely :)
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 06, 2013 12:52 PM
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barbequebob
2314 posts
Aug 06, 2013
1:04 PM
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Relaxation is equally important for both harp players as well as vocalists and its importance can never be overstated. Many players who are teaching themselves are often going to try to force everything to happen and whenever you force ANYTHING to happen, muscles will tense up and the only thing you succeed in doing is making it impossible to get out of your own way.
I have always recommended that all harp players take the time and take breathing and relaxation exercises from a reputable vocal coach because the two always go hand in hand and you'll quickly learn how much this applies to harmonica playing as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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SmokeJS
141 posts
Aug 06, 2013
2:22 PM
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Close to being sold on seeing a vocal coach. Want to be a more confident singer and if it can help my harp then that's a great bonus. Wondering if anyone has any free online lesson suggestions that would give a hint of what's involved?
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Kingley
2986 posts
Aug 07, 2013
12:41 AM
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"Wondering if anyone has any free online lesson suggestions that would give a hint of what's involved?"
Google and YouTube are your friends. Just type in a search and they'll get right back to you.
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mr_so&so
716 posts
Aug 07, 2013
11:05 AM
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I recall when I was learning tongue switching for the 1 hole that my jaw got pretty sore. After paying some attention to what was going on, I was moving my jaw along with my tongue. I focused on just moving the tongue and the pain went away. As others above have said, it takes time to identify and relax the unnecessary tight muscles and build up strength and coordination in the necessary ones.
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ReedSqueal
463 posts
Aug 07, 2013
1:01 PM
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Wow! Funny to see this thread pop up again. I read the subject and thought "hey, I posted a topic like this a while back" heh.
I'm still tongue blocking and progressing. I am using it more and more without thinking about it -- and the relaxation IS the key. I am much more relaxed and typically don't have any jaw pain. When I do, it's usually during wood shedding and I am just pain old trying to hard. But at jams, I don't even think about it.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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barbequebob
2316 posts
Aug 08, 2013
9:44 AM
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I don't recommend doing the cheapskate way out and try to do it by yourself with only YT videos because a good vocal coach will be seeing things that if you DIY, 99% of the time, you're gonna flat out miss them and things you may think are too small and unimportant usually tend to wind up being the things you NEED to pay attention to and they're usually very sublt and hard to notice yourself and they're usually what comes back to haunt you every time.
Doing it with Skype still isn't the same as having the coach right there in front of you because computer screens and cameras have too many limitations on what they can see.
EVERY vocal coach worth their salt will ALWAYS want to check your breathing and relaxation before ANYTHING begins because of its importance and if they don't get your butt the hell out of there FAST!! I've done this already and have never regretted it once.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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SmokeJS
142 posts
Aug 08, 2013
1:56 PM
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ReedSqueal, it's very encouraging to hear you've had success finding a way to relax while tongue blocking and have mostly eliminated jaw pain.
Short of going out and finding an in-person vocal coach the entire concept of relaxing seems a bit anbiguous to those of us who are type A and tend to be wound up a bit tight and push too hard. So I was wondering if there was a key you found that worked for you?
So far my observations, combined with a bit of introspection, has led me to the obvious review of jaw, tongue and lips. But upon further review I noticed the death grip that tends to develop when I"m working on something challenging. Relaxing my hands makes it more difficult to tense up the various parts of my mouth. Is your experience in any way similar?
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Aug 08, 2013 1:58 PM
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barbequebob
2318 posts
Aug 09, 2013
9:52 AM
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@SmokeJS -- The vice grip mentality is also a problem for players holding their harps and when you have that mentality, you will crush the covers far too easily and that mentality is a classic example of too much of the thing I have referred to as the classic macho dumb ass or automatic macho response and that's a thinking when it comes to doing ANYTHING with the instrument, you need to LOSE ASAP and the longer you hold on to that, the more often you wind up being your own worst enemy and it's also a product of someone teaching themselves and getting into the bad habit of trying to force things to happen.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1077 posts
Aug 09, 2013
11:54 AM
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When working techniques w/students, if I notice tenseness in the hands, all that "cupping" stuff comes to a screeching halt.
I then have them hold the harmonica between thumb and first finger (tipping up 45 degrees, of course) and we work on the specific technique.
Also, they learn that you do not have to push the harmonica with force into the mouth, but merely let it rest on the lower lip.
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The Iceman
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ReedSqueal
467 posts
Aug 09, 2013
1:26 PM
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@SmokeJS - I have been on an A harp kick lately. For some reason I have gravitated to that key when I am just front porchin' it. Plus at the jams I go to, a lot of songs or in E. So that works out great!
D harp is next in line, because it's like going from from a SUV to a sports car. i.e. the D harp seems so responsive.
So it's key of A for type A people! haha
And I was at a garage jam recently where a new guy showed up and was watching/listing to me play. I kept seeing him go over to my amp and looking at it, front and back, and tracking my cable from the amp to my mic.
I asked him later what he was doing and he said he was looking for the effects "contraption" - it seems that when I did quick tongue flutters (not side-to-side, not swishing, not a warble) but the quick stabbing type. He thought it was like a Hammond rotating speaker thing somewhere making that effect. After I explained, he asked where to buy a harp and which key to start with. I'll take that as as a big compliment.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
Last Edited by ReedSqueal on Aug 09, 2013 1:28 PM
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SmokeJS
143 posts
Aug 09, 2013
2:13 PM
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ReedSqueal, I'm afraid I've misdirected you a bit. By key I meant something you!ve focused on that has allowed you to become a more relaxed player and thereby lose a lot of the jaw pain. Since I restarted this thread I've been focusing on my hands as I noticed my tendency to hold the harp in a death grip when playing gets a bit challenging like working on tongue block bending. I've noticed that not worrying right now about cupping, and just using my left thumb and the tip of my index finger, mandates a light grip. It then becomes more difficult to use much lip and tongue pressure as there isn't much to push against. To date a moderate lessening of jaw pain is observable.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Aug 09, 2013 2:14 PM
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ReedSqueal
469 posts
Aug 09, 2013
2:37 PM
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@SmokeJS - ok, yeah kinda thought that might be the case. I think it comes down to becoming comfortable with what you are playing vs. what you are trying to learn. Learning new material/techniques I notice that I tense up and get sore again, but now I know what to pay attention to.
At jams etc. I tend to get into the zone (pocket?) and I'm on auto pilot and everything just flows. It's nice feeling.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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A440
92 posts
Aug 12, 2013
2:58 AM
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Perhaps the jaw tension is related to cupping the mic. If your hands are squeezing tightly to get a good seal, your jaw may be subconsciously tightening in sympathy with your hands. Try playing TB acoustically in front of a vocal mic, for a week or so, to see if the problem goes away.
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SmokeJS
144 posts
Aug 12, 2013
6:34 AM
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Focusing on my hands is exactly where I'm at today. As soon as I read many of the earlier suggestions I took a good look at my playing and noticed my hand death grip on the harp. It seemed to me that tension in one area could well lead to tension in other areas ultimately resulting in jaw pain. I've noticed it's not easy to push hard with the lips and tongue against a relaxed, light hand grip. So there seems to be something to the hands that is important. I've seen a small but noticeable improvement in the last week. But focus on tension in the hands needs close monitoring.
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The Iceman
1083 posts
Aug 12, 2013
6:43 AM
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Smoke...
You've discovered a prime example of the whole body acting as one unit along with how unaware most are of tension - we've become so used to it that it flies under our conscious radar.
Become aware, separate all the muscles, examine which ones are being tensed (wasting a few "energy credits") and start to release.
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The Iceman
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