Tommy the Hat
438 posts
Nov 22, 2011
2:51 PM
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Not that I'm ready to buy anything or that I play well enough amped to really make a difference, but i am looking for information anyway. Future reference and general knowledge. Right now I have a Pignose 7-100 and a Bottle O' Blues mic.
At some point I may want to get a better amp and mic combo. Probably a tube amp. I have been looking at mics and have visited a few sites trying to see what's available. But I don't seem to understand it all although I've tried. When I got my current gear all I did was buy an amp and a mic not thinking deeper than that. I recently looked at a Shure UNIDYNE III 545SD and seemed to like it. I first saw the ultimate series 545 on "Blows Me Away" and that is what led me to the other. But looking further I see things like "XLR" and hi and low impedance and other stuff Greek to me.
I get the impression that you can't just plug any mic into any amp? Tube makes a difference? I have tried looking around and reading up on it but can't seem to grasp it.
Anyone here able to give me a dummy version? Suppose I bought a VHT special 6.
Mic?
Thanks
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Tommy
My Videos
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 2:52 PM
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RT123
250 posts
Nov 22, 2011
2:57 PM
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I saw dummies and thought this was a question for me. When I noticed it was a serious mic question I realized it was for Greg. He has a link around here somewhere that is basically the cliff notes version of the microphone bible. It will answer everything you can think of. I will look for it now and post it unless someone else beats me to it.
Here you go. Sorry I am on my phone and can't add it as a clickable link.
http://blowsmeaway.com/all%20about%20harmonica%20microphones.pdf
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 2:59 PM
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Tommy the Hat
439 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:00 PM
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Been there, I need the Dr. Suess version....seriously. lol
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Tommy
My Videos
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 3:01 PM
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MrVerylongusername
2076 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:08 PM
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The key factor is the mics impedance value. It determines the efficiency of voltage transfer between mic and amp.
With a guitar amp or effects pedal, you need a high impedance microphone or a special transformer to convert your low impedance mic to a high impedance one.
With a PA it's the other way round - you need a low impedance mic or a DI box to convert a high impedance mic to low impedance.
Almost modern dynamic mics designed for vocals are low impedance.
All crystal mics are very high impedance - perhaps even too high for some more modern amps.
Most harmonica bullet mics are high impedance, but there are plenty of exceptions. Thankfully most people selling mics for harp are explicit about the impedance.
Some mics are dual impedance - they can be rewired - or the plug inserted differently to swap between the hi and lo.
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HawkeyeKane
466 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:13 PM
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In terms of input on an amp, pretty much every amp you come by is gonna have the 1/4" female jack. I've seen a few acoustic amps out there with an XLR input for a mic, but the gain on them is far lower than the instrument input. In terms of impedance, XLR is low impedance and the 1/4" tends to be high impedance. The Shure 545 has an XLR connection, but you can get a few different things to let you plug into a 1/4", usually either a simple XLR to 1/4" male cable or an inline adapter, which can also have a volume control on it for better control.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Tommy the Hat
440 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:16 PM
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So is it a better to use a high impedance when using an amp then? A low impedance would be for more acoustic playing? I am re-reading Gregs notes (I've read this a few times before) and the impedance and cable stuff just confuses me.
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Tommy
My Videos
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MrVerylongusername
2077 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:19 PM
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@hawkeye
Not true. The later JT30s/bluesblasters had xlr outputs, but were hi-z. There are trends, but no absolute rules. The only way to know for certain is to measure the element or read the manufacturer's datasheet.
@Tommy - yes
Hi-z for amps
Lo-z into a PA
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 3:20 PM
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HawkeyeKane
468 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:20 PM
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Tommy-
In a nutshell, yes.
@Mvlun
Very true. I forgot to say there are exceptions. My bad.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 3:23 PM
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Tommy the Hat
441 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:30 PM
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Ok, so looking at mics on Gregs site there are notes about cables and Impedance Matching Transformers etc. What I want to know is this: Right now I take my Pignose and plug a guitar cable into it and a Bottle O blues mic at the other end and play away. Suppose I had a tube amp. Could I just take, say bullet mic, plug a guitar cable into it and the amp and play away just the same?
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Tommy
My Videos
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FMWoodeye
35 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:31 PM
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I have a Bottle 'O Blues as well as a vintage Astatic JT30. I like the BOB as it's easier to hold...also easy to buy. I was in another harper's "studio" jamming, and the BOB seemed to sound as good as his variety of mikes, both to my ear and his. I bought the BOB and a little Pignose upon recommendation from a guy on another site, a "good" player who even has done a couple endorsement videos for harps. Get this. He says he likes the "sound" of the little Pignose more than his bigger amp, a big Pignose,30, 40 watt, I think. And now at gigs he runs four little Pignoses simultaneously with the BOB mike. It just came to mind as I was reading Adam's article about amps and his indication that he always uses two simultaneously. I thought it was for qualitative reasons, but apparently multiple amps must give you a quantitative difference, too (louder). BUT....I can't see walking into a place with a wheelbarrow full of little Pignoses.
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MrVerylongusername
2078 posts
Nov 22, 2011
3:36 PM
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A High impedance bullet (and they are not automatically high impedance so check) would plug straight into a guitar amp or pedal and sound fine.
A vocal low impedance mic without a transformer would sound thin and low in volume.
Add a transformer to make the low impedance signal a high one and it sounds good again.
That's the basics - then you have stuff like tonal qualities of mics and what works best with what amp circuits and speakers and such. There are guys, like Greg, who can really tell you about that stuff
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Tommy the Hat
443 posts
Nov 22, 2011
4:06 PM
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Thanks MrVLUN, that makes some sense. It may be starting to clear the fog!
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Tommy
My Videos
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Tag
24 posts
Nov 22, 2011
4:55 PM
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Please tell me more about this BOB. Where can I get one?
Thanks
Tag
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Tommy the Hat
444 posts
Nov 22, 2011
5:00 PM
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Here:
Bottle O' Blues
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Tommy
My Videos
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 5:00 PM
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MrVerylongusername
2079 posts
Nov 22, 2011
5:11 PM
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Hmmm... just watched the harmonica mic 'smackdown' video.
I'm not dissing the bottle o' blues, but I think the video is very misrepresentative of a Green Bullet. If that was a GB with a Hi-z element in it I'll eat Tommy the Hat's hat. If you were to stand with a Hi-z GB mic in front of an amp like that with the gain on full you would get a ton of feedback in your ear. With a Hi-z bullet, you only need a touch of drive to dirty it up.
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Tommy the Hat
445 posts
Nov 22, 2011
5:49 PM
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Actually I get feedback from my BoB that close. Then again I have a cheap cable.
Back to the thread topic. I think I'm starting to understand a little more. But that leads to a question that I fear asking. It is that common thread title along with "what amp should I buy?" What harp should I buy?" and the like. lol.
I think when the time comes I will probably buy a High impedance. Then at some point later, a low. Just to have some versatility; and i could probably sing through a low impedance mike right? Like a 545 or SM57 or something. Then again I have to concider the fact that it is all for my own enjoyment and gear lust because I don't play in a band/out and have no plans to.
Ok....lets not get ahead of myself here. First things first...learn to play!!
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Tommy
My Videos
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 5:55 PM
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Greg Heumann
1345 posts
Nov 22, 2011
6:18 PM
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Tommy - they don't teach you this stuff in school. You're not supposed to know it automatically. Those of us who know it simply learned by experience. I am all about customer support. If you have questions for me, you can ask any time, private or publicly, here or by email or by phone. That's what I am here for.
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/Greg
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FMWoodeye
36 posts
Nov 22, 2011
6:27 PM
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Yes, re-prioritize. The little Piggy is loud enough at half volume to make my wife bitch....but then it doesn't take much to make her bitch. The BOB/Piggy combo works great at tailgates, campfires, living rooms and such. I went to a big-band audition, 5-4-4 configuration, with my bone, harps, BOB and Piggy. The BOB was quite the conversation piece among the non-harp musicians. Some thought it was glass. Still, being able to play is the main thing.
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easyreeder
45 posts
Nov 22, 2011
7:35 PM
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Tommy: A note about transformers: Don't buy the cheap stuff. A good line-matching transformer is worth the money. A cheap one is a tone-sucking monster from hell that will make the best mic/amp combination sound like a cat screeching through a paper towel tube. I like Shure, and have always stuck with them (I use them a lot in my professional life).
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Tag
25 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:57 PM
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Thanks. That looks like a good beginners option to get started with a mic. Looks like I'll be ordering one!!! (unless someone has one laying around that they want to sell).
Thanks again
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didjcripey
158 posts
Nov 22, 2011
10:23 PM
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Here's my five cents worth: (and remember you usually get what you pay for!)
Hi impedance (often written Hi Z) for amps.
Low impedance (Low Z) for PA systems.
Medium impedance (about 500 ohms) will often work really well too, I have a couple of medium Z which go great on my amp, because they allow me to drive it harder before feedback. Depending on the amp, sometimes even a low Z like a SM57 is not too bad.
You really should try a Shure Controlled Magnetic (or CM) element, they have a very distinctive sound and nothing sounds quite like them.
I've got quite a few different mics; crystals, ceramics, dynamics and none of them produce the sound of a CM.
I personally like to use two mics, the shure CM for a thick sound and a shure 540 for a cleaner sound, especially when the band gets really loud. I made up a little A/B box to switch between them without having to mess with cables.
As for the shell, it won't make a huge difference to the tone of the element. Find one that is comfortable to hold and stylish too! If you get sucked in to the vintage mic collecting game, bring your money with you! Make sure the element is securely mounted in a gasket that is airtight. If you get a hum from the mic (and sometimes a little static electric shock), the shell needs to be grounded.
The biggest factor in your amplified sound will always be your technique. I reckon some of the really good players could get a great sound out of a jam tin with a bit of string coming out the end.
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Lucky Lester
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Tommy the Hat
446 posts
Nov 23, 2011
4:25 AM
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@didjcripey
Thanks, that was helpful.
@Greg Heumann
Thank you, good to know. I'll keep it in mind. I've been at your site often and love those mics. Not knowing a whole lot about this stuff, I can't explain why...lol. Maybe because they look nice! You know, I really need to "look" like I know what I'm doing!!
But seriously, being fairly new to playing and still learning, I don't want to get too crazy too soon. While on the other hand I don't want to have to re-buy stuff down the road because I bought crap the first time. But I don't want to (as a beginner) blow a lot of cash on something I may never use other than in my living room either. A lot to think about right now so I'm just gathering information and knowledge beforehand.
Thank you.
Thanks all. It all really helped.
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Tommy
My Videos
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 4:26 AM
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Fingers
124 posts
Nov 23, 2011
12:47 PM
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Tommy! my green bullet is dual impedance!! you only need to switch the wires in the jack plug.
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Tommy the Hat
450 posts
Nov 23, 2011
12:59 PM
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And the plot thickens!!
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Tommy
My Videos
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atty1chgo
165 posts
Nov 23, 2011
1:17 PM
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I'm sold on Electrovoice mics. I own three of them (EV 660A, EV 635A, and an EV 638) and am waiting on a truly vintage Electrovoice 664 in immaculate condition that I bought from a church in South Bend, Indiana for $35.00. I heard that the tone on the 664 is awesome, and hey, my arms need the exercise anyway.
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orphan
125 posts
Nov 23, 2011
1:47 PM
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I used my EV 664 when I played in a Praise Band. It worked well on a stand. I would play into it when comping and then cup it on the lead/solo. Cool retro look. Like your EV 638, it doesn't have a lot of bottom end. You made an excellent buy @ $35.00! Does the cable come with it?
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atty1chgo
166 posts
Nov 23, 2011
2:12 PM
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Now I'm confused, because these mics DO have plenty of bottom, don't they? Actually, I got two of the 664's with cables - $70.00 for the pair, and they are the old ones, not the later models. And no, they aren't for sale. :)
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orphan
126 posts
Nov 23, 2011
2:31 PM
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@atty1chgo
I am comparing to my JT30's. One has a crystal element, one a CM. The JT30 has more bass response imo. If your mics sound good to you, then they sound good period. I don't mean to talk the EV mics down in any way. I like them the ones I have and wish I could say they were $70.00 for the pair. CONGRATULATIONS!!
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MrVerylongusername
2081 posts
Nov 23, 2011
3:34 PM
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@Tommy
Based on your last few posts, I'd recommend a Shure SM58 and a good quality impedance transformer. That way you'll have both a good vocal mic and harp mic that doesn't require rewiring to swap the impedance.
Don't buy off ebay unless you are 100% 'Shure' (sorry! couldn't resist) what you're getting. There is a whole industry in fake Shure mics, or genuine Shure mic bodies with cheap replacement cartridges.
Greg's 'Heumannizing' harp friendly mods will not reduce the mics effectiveness as a vocal mic and you'd be sure of getting the real deal off him - so that might be a good way to go.
A Green Bullet makes a horrible vocal mic, unless you are trying to achieve a lo-fi, singing through a megaphone sound.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 3:35 PM
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Tommy the Hat
451 posts
Nov 23, 2011
3:42 PM
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Thanks MrVLUN, something to consider.
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Tommy
My Videos
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hvyj
1972 posts
Nov 23, 2011
3:56 PM
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"The JT30 has more bass response imo." Unless you live in some sort of alternative reality or parallel universe, there is no way that a JT-30 has better bass response than an EV 660 or Ev 635A. Just check the freq. response specs. of each mic. Those EV mics have a significantly more extended low freq. response than any JT-30. They also have a nice thick harp friendly midrange response which is why they are such great sounding harp mics.
IMHO, the most important piece of gear for any harp player, and the first piece of gear to acquire is a good quality harp friendly mic. As much as i love EVs, the best sounding and most versatile harp mic I've ever used is the Shure 545 Ultimate, lo-z. Play it through the PA or use an IMT and play it through an amp. Play it direct into the PA or amp or run it through effects pedals and/or processors. Use it for blues, jazz, rock, pop, reggae, R&B, country, whatever. Play it clean or overdrive the element with a tight cup and proximity effect. It does it all and does it all extremely well. Great harp mic.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 4:07 PM
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