|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Question for Jim (keys you need)
Question for Jim (keys you need)
Page:
1
RT123
244 posts
Nov 13, 2011
3:36 PM
|
There was a recent thread explaining positions which made me think about a thread Jim responded to a couple months ago. I used the search but couldnt find it. Jim made a comment that you only needed 4 or 5 keys and the rest were not needed.
Jim... (or anyone that can answer this) Can you explain that again. Which keys and the theory behind it. Also if specific tuning is required. I normally play manjis that are compromise or bluesmasters that are equal.
This type of subject gets my mind really thinking and interested.
|
nacoran
4919 posts
Nov 13, 2011
4:48 PM
|
Okay, first- what is the circle of fifths? It's just an easy way to make a chart to show how different keys are related to each other. Traditionally, it's drawn with the key of C on top because C is the simplest key to figure out. It doesn't have any sharp or flat notes, so, on a piano for instance, it's just white keys. There is no reason why C has to be on top as long as the keys are in the same order. It's like a clock.
So, that's what I've done with the clock/circle of fifths here is I moved the C around one space and moved everything else to follow. Why? Well, now, for the C harmonica at least, the positions are the same as the time. C is 1 O'Clock, and it's also 1st position. F is 12 O'Clock. It's also 12th position. It works for all the positions on a C harp.
Sometimes you'll hear people talk about keys being close to each other, but you look at them and they don't start anywhere near each other. C and G are very close when people are talking about the circle of fifths, but not related to their starting pitch. So what are these people talking about? They are talking about how many sharps or flats the key has. C has no flats or sharps. G has one sharp (F#) and no flats. The key of F has one flat (Bb) and no sharps, so it's pretty close to C too.
Now, for your question. How many diatonic harmonicas do you need? Well, there are 12 keys. If you can play in all 12 positions you've got the whole clock covered, so you only need 1 harp. If you only play 2 positions in a row (say, 1st and 2nd) the fewest number of harps you'll need is 6 (every other harp). If you play 3 consecutive positions you'll only need 4 harps. (If you can play in 4 consecutive positions you only need 3 harps.)
So, say you actually want to figure out which harps you want. You'll need harps at different 'O'Clocks' depending on how many positions you play. Just think of it like this. You can play at the time for the harmonica you have. That's first position.
You only play 1 position-
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12
If you play 2 consecutive positions-
1-3-5-7-9-11 or 2-4-6-8-10-12
If you play 3 consecutive positions-
1-4-7-10 or 2-5-8-11 or 3-6-9-13
If you play 4 consecutive positions-
1-5-9 or 2-6-10 or 3-7-11 or 4-8-12
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 4:57 PM
|
jim
1045 posts
Nov 14, 2011
4:15 AM
|
If I mentioned 5 keys somewhere, I was most likely referring to the TrueChromatic tuning I use.
It requires C, C#, B, Bb, and A for the complete set.
The logic of the tuning is just so that the rest of the keys are repeating those five, having 2 extra holes in the top or bottom octave.
----------
Free Harp Learning Center
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2011 4:15 AM
|
RT123
245 posts
Nov 14, 2011
5:18 AM
|
@ Jim - I couldnt remember exactly how many keys you had said and I couldnt find the thread so I thought I would ask. Very interesting, thanks for the information!
@ Nacoran - I understand the comcept of the circle of fifths but I was thinking more basic than that. You will have all the keys if I use your example of 2 consecutive positions. C,D,E,F#,Ab,Bb would have all keys covered either in first or second position. If I play a C harp in second postion I am playing in G. Is the 2 draw on the C (G note) the exact same sound as the 4 blow (G note) on a G harp? Is playing C harp in second position an exact sound match as a G in first?
|
HarpNinja
1883 posts
Nov 14, 2011
5:55 AM
|
Here is the actual thread:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/1774718.htm
I consider myself very fluent in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 12th. I am more than proficient in 1st, 5th, and 11th. In other words, I don't always feel limited by a certain position, although I would almost never pick a position that I didn't think was a good fit for my end goal.
This past weekend I bet I played 2/3 of the night in 3rd and probably played just as much 12th as 2nd.
It would work, I think, for me to use:
C
A
F#
Ab or Eb...wouldn't be necessary to have both
The breakdown would be the following for Major keys (overlaps includes...using 1st, 2nd, 11th, and 12th):
C - C, G, Bb, F
A - A, E, G, D
F# - F#, Db, E, B
Ab - Ab, Eb, F#, Db
Eb - Eb, Bb, Db, Ab
Minor would be (2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th):
C - G,D, A, E
A - E, B, F#, Db
F# - Db, Ab, Eb, Bb
Ab - Eb, Bb, F, C
Eb - Bb, F, C, G
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2011 6:09 AM
|
hvyj
1955 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:02 AM
|
@nancoran: C and G are very close, The last 4 notes of the C major scale are the first 4 notes of the G major scale.
@RT123: Different positions more easily give you the notes of certain modes, so certain positions provide different note choices for the same key, Need to play a tune that has a 6b and 3b in the melody? 4th and 5th position give you those notes w/o having to bend. What if that same tune also has a major 2 in the melody? Then 4th position is better because it gives you that note in two registers without having to bend, So, personally, I'll select a position that gives me a mode that provides most of the notes I need in order to play the tune at hand and bend (if possible) for the other notes I need. I don't OB.
Also in certain positions, certain notes are blow notes and in other positions they are draw notes. If you want to play blues in G on a G harp you can't get the 3b unless you blow bend on the high end.. In second position you can draw bend for that note. So, these sorts of considerations influence choice of what position to play for a particular tune.
Personally, I'm proficient in 2d, 3rd, 4th and 5th, okay in 1st and passable in 12th. I use all six positions when I perform but use 1st the least.
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2011 6:21 AM
|
RT123
246 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:07 AM
|
Thanks Mike! That was the thread I was looking for,
It just had me thinking because the way Jim said it was it is useless to have the other keys. I take his word for it because he knows a hell of a lot more than i do.
But when you state it that way, why would you ever play the key of G on a C harp in second position if you already have a G harp and play it in first. My ears are not good enough and I am not smart enough to notice the sound differences. I just play as I learned through books and online information.
I have been playing second position about 75% of the time for over a decade and then I read some threads like this and it has me thinking and confusing myself. LOL
|
RT123
247 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:09 AM
|
@ hvjy - You sent the response to answer my question as I was sending it. Thanks for everyone clearing up this question I had. It was a simple question that I was overthinking!
|
HarpNinja
1884 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:18 AM
|
Jim isn't using standard Richter tuned harps when he says that.
But going back to the theory behind only using 4-5 harps that are Richter tuning, you have to ask yourself, "Why?"
While I think my math would check out, I would rather carry 5-12 harps with me than just four. I could make it work for sitting in or something, but 9 times out of 10, it would make more sense for me to bring standard 2nd position harps with me.
For me, the easiest thing to do on the fly is play 2nd position, whether it me Major, minor, mixolydian, or blues. I am comfortable with overblowing/drawing, so I don't really think in terms of thirds of the harp. A lot of players do, especially in blues, but in 2nd position anyways, I feel that finding notes in all three sections is easy.
With that in mind, if I could only carry four harps, they would be C, G, D, and A. If I had to start all over again buying harps, I'd get them in this order: C, A, D, G.
Obviously, it is helpful to have the other keys, but I think you can get those 4 to work for at least several tunes with just about any band.
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
|
jim
1047 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:26 AM
|
This would make sense for any tuning:
Less instruments -more control over each key.
----------
Free Harp Learning Center
|
hvyj
1956 posts
Nov 14, 2011
6:59 AM
|
For playing blues in 1st 2nd and 3rd positions you would be pretty well covered with a set of 7 harps in the following keys: G, A , Bb, C, D, Eb and F. If you play rock, folk and/or pop add E. These will cover you in 95%+ of the situations you will encounter. If you are a 5th position player, add Ab for C minor which is a commonly called key.
|
RT123
248 posts
Nov 14, 2011
7:09 AM
|
I never really put this much thought into it. Maybe for good reason, but now I am seeing things differently. When I get home I am finally going to set up my case by the circle of fifths. Damn this is much easier. I have just been playing the lazy way I was taught.
Jim - I like your style. It is a little too complicated for me to cut down to that many harps but I am definately going to start working at it.
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2011 7:11 AM
|
Post a Message
|
