Hi guys, i wondered if someone could explain to me in laymans terms how the positions work. I know it's all about the circle of fiths but i need a practical explanation ie how you actually apply the theory to the harp. When i play, i play in 2nd pos, i don't know why i'm in 2nd i just know i am, on an A harp i am playing in the key of E. Apparently it is somehow possible to play in all 12 keys on that same A harp but how? and how do you know what position you are playing in?, if for instance i want to practice 3rd position on my A harp how do i go about it,where do i start? what makes the blow and draw notes i'm playing 3rd position? and not still 2nd? this is a big mystery to me and i feel i really need to get my head round this in order to move my understanding of, and my ability on this amazing little instrument onto the next level.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2011 12:25 AM
Ok without bombarding you with mixamytosis, flat turds and Ancient Greek...
Positions are about the relationship between the key of your harp and the key of the music.
The key of a piece of music indicates what the tonal centre - the tonic - is. In most blues music, that tonal centre stays put.
From that tonic note, you can derive a scale. There are different kinds of scales, depending on the feel of the music.
In western music there are 12 notes to choose from and a diatonic - do re mi so fa la ti (do) scale has 7, so there's usually some overlap of notes between scales.
So you could choose to play a different scale by starting on a different note. Of course the more accurate your bends are and if you can overblow, the more likely you'll be of playing all the notes in your new scale. Worth saying too, that you don't always need all the notes anyway.
2nd position works really well, because a C major scale and a G major scale only differ by one note
C D E F G A B C G A B C D E F# G
This is a simplistic overview. I could go on about modes and the circle of fifths and I'm sure someone else will, but that's the basics
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2011 3:37 AM
Youtube Michael rubin.. Watch his 54ish videos on music theory. The videos are amazing. He has done a "gussow" on music theory and i am forever grateful for that.
Thanks Milsson. Here's the beginning of positions, but I would recommend you start at video number one and make sure you really understand it, ask me questions if you do not, then number two, etc.
Playing in different positions is just playing the harp in different keys. Musicians who play other instruments do it all the time.
Now, for example playing a C harp in C is first position. Playing a C harp in A minor is fourth position. You use the same notes since A is the relative minor of C. So, how can you tell if you are playing in C or in A minor? It simply depends on whether you are using A or C as the root note of the scale you are playing. If a tune in C major has a chord change that goes to A minor (which is not uncommon) even if you play Am over that change you would still be playing first position in the key of C.
To simplify it without getting into keys and note names etc. Any key harmonica has all the 12 notes...the one that IS the key of the harp and the other 11.
The root or tonic note of any key is on any harp.
I learned by playing random blues songs, grabbing a random harp and finding the root note and seeing what I could do from there.
I understand you need some instruction as to which harp for which key based on which position you play in, but in my humble opinion you don't need to know what every note you play is unless you are trying to work out a part with the symphony or something.
Whan the band plays a minor tune in "A", I know I need a "F" harp to play in 5th position...and I know the root notes are 2,5,8 blow...but ask me what note I was wailing on in the song, I can tell you 3/6 blow split to get me the flat 3rd.. I just never think in terms of note names. I don't think a lot of the greats of old did either.
Harpdude61 If you know the note names AND the scale degrees and where they are on a harp, then you can communicate quickly with either type of musician. That's what names are for, imo. Imagine a world with no names. Put the thing on the thing next to the thing.
Modes are also a shorthand for communicating. FWIW, the most commonly used positions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 12th) each correspond to a particular mode. Playing in that position doesn't necessarily mean that you are playing in the corresponding mode, but you will be able play the corresponding mode in the associated position without having to bend any notes.
My mum had encaphalitis many years ago - it's caused some minor brain damage I think, like a little stroke would. She says stuff like that all the time!
@michael...You are a great teacher and I have picked up some great stuff myself from your recent videos. You are very generous taking the time to do what you do for the harp community.
I agree that the more you know the better.
On the other hand, if you have no musical background and all you really want to do is play some blues in a jam or be in a band...you can save a LOT of time by just learning the degrees and where they are in the various positions. You need only learn one scale by degrees rather than 12 by naming the notes. One scale per mode rather than 12 per mode.
If a band mate says wail on a flat 5 or a flat 7, I know exactly where to go depending on what position I am in. The name of the note is not needed in this system...no thingies either.
I may be wrong, but I bet someone like Cotton or Sonny Boy couldn't name each note per each harp per each position.
Harpdude, you don't have to know each note per each position, since the name of the notes doesn't change on any given harp (assuming you know the names of bends and everything, and you can actually figure those out pretty easily if you know all the names of the holes.) You're right though, there is a third set of sequential symbols that most people know, Roman numerals, and if you think about things in terms of degrees of scales, using Roman numerals, it can help. It's just another system you can learn, but I'd say the fact that you know what a flat 5 is indicates you have more music background than you think. :)
It's really hard to explain in a single post. If you were teaching it to someone sitting in front of you you would be able to see that they got each step, because each step helps explain the next step. One of the reasons I type out a big response every time the question comes up is I'm trying to practice explaining it. It's funny, I took theory 20 years ago, and I didn't really understand it. Then I didn't do anything that involved theory for most of that time. When I came back to it it suddenly made sense. It had had time to gel in my brain. That can be a useful technique (although 20 years might be a bit extreme.) :)
HArpdude61, Thanks. I definitely agree scale degrees are more valuable than notes. But I have worked with many a bandleader who doesn't understand them and only talks in notes.
WOW Guys, thanks for all the responses above, there is a lot of great info here that i will have to work on a bit to try to "GET IT" but nothing worth having ever comes easy. You have done me proud with the effort and detail put into these replies so once again Thanks!
Kudos to all you guys who answer these questions time and again, especially nacoran and hvyj who are always generous with the depth of their responses. Learning music theory takes repetition of the concepts just as playing music takes practice! Thank you all!
Note: the actual numbers we use for positions are by convention, not theory -although theory applies after convention. 1st and 2nd are used because of the order in which they are usually learned. This is true for 3rd as well, or the 3rd most likely to learned. I asked Howard Levy about this as far back as 1985. I said that they should be named in order. He basically said it made sense but no way it would happen.
Littoral, they are in order, only by the circle of fifths.
It may not seem like the most logical choice, but it has a very strong upside- when you think in terms of the circle of fifths it's very useful for keying songs or trying to play chromatically. It's usually quicker for me to just throw my harps in the case in alphabetical order because as a kid, like everyone else, I had alphabetical order drilled into my head, but if you put them in order by the circle of fifths I find keying songs is much easier. The closer you get to the right harp the better it sounds. In alphabetical order you can go from A to Bb and go from being close to pretty far away.
Well, there has been a lot of information laid out above. I can tell you that I was classically trained as a trombone player and was good enough to be awarded a music scholarship to Wayne State University, which I did not take advantage of. Back then, if you passed an audition for the concert band, you were off to the races. Then, as now, low brass was in demand. I always felt that being able to read music inhibited my ability to improvise on the bone. I think it might be because I think a lot in images, and I was always thinking of notes while playing. While plinking on a piano in the band room in high school, along with a bass player plinking the bass line, I found after a while I could improvise quite easily and fluidly just recognizing patterns and not really knowing what the notes were. I transferred this to the harp, and it works quite well for me. I know the patterns and don't worry about what the notes are. I avoid tabs, preferring to "sound it out," which I think has benefited me in the long run. Perhaps we take different roads to reach our destinations, drawing on our strengths and compensating for our weaknesses....or maybe not.
Nacoran, circle of fifths. Thanks, it seems that was also said somewhere back in my recollection. I've been trying to convince myself to set my new case up in the circle and this may be, finally, the message to do it.
The Circle of 5ths way of naming positions is quite a recent idea - so back in '85 it maybe still hadn't caught on yet. That's why in Tony Glover's book he talks about 4th position when nowadays we'd call it 5th.
But I don't think it's a coincidence that that the first three positions are separated by a fifth. Keys a fifth apart share six notes.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2011 10:16 PM
I used to join in these debates until I realised that it's rocket science if you don't play keyboards. I had to do Grade 5 Theory in order to be able to sit the Grade 8 Piano practical, and so it's hard for me to see things from the other side. But I've just discovered another other side! I've just bought a copy of Music Theory for Dummies because playing the ukulele (my first ever foray into stringed instruments) has made me realise that things like chord progressions are the bread and butter of guitarists (whereas pianists don't rely on them so much and so they feature later on in a pianist's music theory lessons). Harp players who have no theory and no keyboard may then be interested in this book and in buying the cheapest keyboard they can find. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Another plug for Michael Rubins Meat & Potatoes Lessons on youtube. I ain't pure stupid, it all takes me awhile, but I can do most anything I want to. Theory has eluded me and I'm pretty sure Rubin's videos will solve my problem. #'s 9 & 10 already scored a big bright light bulb for me.
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 9:57 AM
Yep Michael Rubins shure knows his stuff and he is very good at getting the message across, I'm gonna sit down and watch the whole lot from start to finish during my convelecence next week if I'm feeling up to it.
