I was poking around in my garage over the weekend and came across a NOS 6L6G--a GE tube, which I promptly swapped into my Premier. Wow! Zowie! I'm set on that front.
While poking into the innards of my '56 Bassman, I discovered that I'm running a pair of Sovtec 5881/6L6GC. I'm sure that they are not optimal. What would the tube gurus here swap in for those? Also, the amp has three preamp tubes. (It also has only two inputs: bright and normal.) It's hard to read the printing on the tubes, but it seems that at least one of them is a 12AY7 and two others are 12AX7. All of the tubes have been in the amp since I purchased it in the early 1990s. I've always felt that the amp could benefit from some additional input strength, so I put a 12AX7--Motorola, I think--in the bright channel and got a noticeable boost.
Any thoughts about what preamp tubes (brand names, NOS or other) I might put into the Bassman. I use a Shure PE5H, as I've said more than once. Any help would be appreciated.
Sylvania and GE 6L6's and preamp tubes have best tone IMHO, if you can find them, try placing next to the 6L6(on the right) a 12AY7 then 12AX7 and then the next 12AX7. Ceasar Diaz showed me that.
Is that the Bassman Trip sold you? Is it Black Tolex, with Loyola stenciled on top?
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2011 11:31 AM
Here's the amp. Yes, it's the one Trip sold me. It was worked on and re-tweeded in the late 1980s by Gerald Weber. Three original blue cone Jensens, one Kendrick.
I can see one of the mics looks like a Sennheiser (small amp) designed to be draped. It is either a e906 or a e609. I have the e906 and it is a FANTASTIC mic. I would endorse the e609 too.
@oldwailer: HarpNinja is correct on this one. It's a Sennheiser e906 and it is the best harp-amp mic I've found. I dangled it, in fact; I brought it along and dangled it. When I preached against sound men dangling mics in front of amps, I was talking about the execrable practice of dangling SM58's in front of amps. You lose all definition when you do that, and the long, heavy mics (compared with the e9060 often end up dangling in front of the rim of the cone rather than the center of the cone, especially when you're doing this on smaller amps.
By contrast, the e906 is specifically designed to lay flat against the grill cloth. The active surface of the mic IS that flat side, so you can position it very precisely, as you prefer, with relation to the cone. Finally, it's designed for very high db levels--it's a guitar amp mic--so you never need to worry about it clipping or overloading.
Once I heard how good it made my amps sound, I bought two and I carry them with me, even when I do fly in gigs.
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2011 11:21 AM
Factory correct tubes for V1 & V2 (farthest right & 2nd from right, from back of amp) are 12AY7, only V3 next to the power tubes should be a 12AX7...if that sort of thing bothers you (it doesn't me, whatever works best with your mic is right, 12AX7 are actually easier on the amp than 12AY7). The EH 12AY7 are pretty good, Scooter uses them in the Meteors. I did have a '60 GE12AY7 with the square getter that sounded great...for nearly a year & cost 3 times what the EH cost :-( Some Mil spec low noise NOS 12AY7 have very low output. RCA are a pretty safe bet.
Sovtek 5881WXT are pretty hard to beat (don't be put off because they are cheap), there are tubes that sound different & may be preferable. NOS default would be the Phillips/Sylvania 6L6WGB...but how those tubes are biased will be most critical, ideally, get the tech to sweep through the bias range whilst you play through the amp & use your ears to set the bias (the tech will tell you if you are likely to damage the amp by going to hot).
Better to have acceptable tubes that are biased right, than esoteric tubes that are not. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Adam, I've draped a Transcontinental dynamic vocal mic in front of my Vypyr 15 on many occaisions, mainly because I didn't have any other choice since I have no small mic stand or even a boom stand to place it directly in front of the speaker. For such a cheap mic, it works really well.
I know this isn't the best way to go, but would you even recommend using such a mic even in an appropriate stand? I prefer to use a 57 myself, but I don't always have one available. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
If it was covered in Black Tolex and stenciled Loyola on Top then, that Bassman came from my friend,the late great Cesar Diaz,(SRV's Amp tech)and it was the best sounding Bassman I Ever played through... At his house in his basement, in Penn. He was upstairs and said "Man you were shaking the floor boards!" He said "I will give it to you for a thousand"... I told trip and gave him Cesar's phone number, he called and the price suddenly turned to $1,600... Ha!
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2011 12:05 PM
Also, if you don't want to pay for vintage Sylvania or GE's 6L6's... I prefer the sound of Chinese 6L6's they break up really nice, once they get Hot. www.Doug's Tubes.com Ruby 6L6GC Nice price, matched tubes, Blues Tone
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2011 7:09 PM
Adam, the sound man at a large outdoor event stuck an SM57 right into the center of one of the 4 10" speakers of my Sonny Jr. this summer. I pulled it back to get the benefit of all the speakers, and at an angle. Sound man saw it, put it right back. Since I'm not James Cotton, I didn't argue the point, but it seems to me if you go to the trouble to mix 3 alnicos with 1 ceramic speaker to get a certain tone, then randomly sticking a mic into the center of 1 speaker is defeating the purpose.
@mc: I honestly don't know the provenance of the amp. (Provenance: definition: where the hell it came from.) You could be right. All I know is, the first time I saw and heard the amp, Trip was playing "Juke" through it at Dan Lynch on E. 13th Street--this was the fall of 1983, I believe, shortly after I first went down there to learn the blues--and I was amazed. Later, when he offered to sell it to me, I said "Hell yes!" I went to his house out in NJ--his parents' house, actually--and was happy to give him $1500 cash for it. That was in 1991, I think, or 1992, around the time that Satan and Adam first made it big.
I also bought a blackface Super from him. Very nice amp, but nothing like the Bassman. The Bassman was slightly narrower than the later (58-59) models and he used to describe it as having a "wilder" sound. Especially once it warmed up. It got wilder and woollier when it heated up.
I'm under-utilizing it. It doesn't really give me my sound on the upper end of the harp; it doesn't have enough compression, sag, and sustain when I use it with my mic. It was definitely too loud to use when I played with Sterling Magee. But I'm glad I have it, and I'll never sell it. It's a pedigreed old sportscar--sort of like the 1960 Jaguar XK-120 that my late uncle owned, and that I spent a summer working on out in Downey, California when I was 15. That car had Abarth exhausts. There was nothing to compare to that sound.
@rbeetsme: As I see it, both you and the soundman were wrong. You were wrong because, in a live sound situation, pulling the mic back to get diffused, mixed sound from all four speakers isn't optimal--although in a studio, it actually delivers great sound. The soundman was wrong because miking a speaker directly over the cone gets you a lot of crunch at the expense of low frequencies and overall smoothness. When I dangle a mic over an individual speaker, I always place it halfway between the center of the cone and the edge of the cone--or maybe slightly closer to the center than the edge.
My bassman has 3 original speakers and one Kendrick replacement not because I think that's ideal, but becauuse that's how it came from Trip. I'd rather have a blue-cone Jensen, frankly, but replacing the fourth speaker on a working amp that I don't use very often hasn't been a high priority. It's a project, though, and some day I'll do it.
On my soon-to-be-released album, I used a pair of amps--a Premier Twin-8 and a Kay 703. I close-miked each amp using Sennheiser e906s, and I also had a pair of room mics about ten feet away from the amps and 6 feet high. The smoothness and fullness always comes from the room mics. The crunch comes from the close mics. Blend as necessary--and make sure that the two amps are in phase, of course.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2011 8:48 AM
Hence, my seemingly lazy approach to live tone (studio is totally different). There are essentially two sides and it is near impossible to have the two in complete sync all the time.
There is what you hear on stage and what is heard front of house. You have to decide if you want them to be the same of if you are content with the two sometimes being totally different.
Here is just one example of what I mean (I could go on here for a while) using a Sonny Jr as an example:
- four piece blues band - decent room that can hold 200-300 - large multi-speaker amps for guitar and harmonica - full sound available (including appropriate PA speakers and subwoofers
Most players are going to not mike the Sonny Jr and run it at a loud volumes, or mike it and run it at a loud volumes (and have very little in the mains because of the overall mix).
This might sound great where you are standing. You get 50ish watts cranked and all the benefits of mixed speakers, etc.
FOH, though, while technically loud enough in the mix, there is NO WAY it sounds like it does on stage. It would for sure sound huger throughout the room going through the PA.
Even if you mike it, you are close miking one speaker - two if the sound guy is really nice and what is going FOH still doesn't represent what you hear on stage from the mix of speakers...but it is much closer and maybe mixed through the PA enough to sound huge in relation to the rest of the band.
The opposite of this approach is using something that lets the PA do the heavy lifting and then using an amp or monitor for monitoring purposes. While maybe more consistent from stage to audience, it will obviously sound way louder and large FOH.
Over-simplification being:
Nothing sounds the same in regards to whether you are on stage or off stage. You have to find the compromises you are willing to make and not make and then not fret about what you can't control.
Have the stuff we stress about regarding live playing is a total crap shoot anyways, so why get all worked up?
I could easily right 3-5 pages on this with my main point being we spend too much time worrying about we can't ultimately control and how there is no way people here the last 10-15% of "tone" from gear in a live situation.
This still doesn't solve any problems as we still need to search for functionality...which is a huge pain in the butt for just the simple volume/feedback battle alone.
So....my end result is using a small amp and good-great PA gear. I can control the variables most important to me and be comfortable that the only excuses for my shitty-ness are from what I am playing and how I am playing it...not gear. I also tend to be concerned with the FOH sound enough to live with compromises to what I hear on stage. While I realize that it won't be perfect, I am more irritated with it being hard to hear what I am doing FOH than on stage.
This has happened several times. What is the point of taking a solo if the crowd can't really hear it, etc? Harmonica should always be the loudest instrument on stage and FOH...not that it needs to be 100% of the time, but it should be able to be the loudest at all times.
I would also argue that even if you could mike all four Sonny Jr speakers, the chances of the crowd knowing or caring about the change in sound from one to four speakers are almost zero...assuming FOH is mixed well in general.
Correction! I've just been poking around in the back of my Bassman and it turns out to be a 5D6-A, which according to Wikipedia was a 1955 model: the first official release of the 4x10 Bassman. Serial #: 0187.
I took a few photos:
I'd be interested in purchasing a replacement Jensen to match the P10-R in the photograph. Vintage only, please, not a new Italian.
I'd also be interested in hearing from 5F and others about whether there would be any noticeable sound difference between the Kendrick that's now holding down the fourth slot and a vintage Jensen.
Incidentally, there is NO mention of harmonica or harp anywhere on the Wikipedia page for "Fender Bassman." According to the entry as it currently stands, the amp is a guitarist's favorite.
I think that several of you folks who know Bassmans well should head on over to Wikipedia and revise the entry.
"I'd also be interested in hearing from 5F and others about whether there would be any noticeable sound difference between the Kendrick that's now holding down the fourth slot and a vintage Jensen." The Kendrick is smoother, woodier. Jensens tend to be raspier, but any old Jensen will need to have been reconed if you are to gig the amp, even if the cone is intact the glue loses tack & the cone falls away from the voice coil. I buck the trend somewhat in that I don't particularly like the old Jensens (I like the new ones even less), I'd be more likely to swap the 3 Jensens for more Kendricks! Others will disagree.
In your case I'd be tempted to leave well alone whilst everything is working OK, just rest assured that the Kendrick isn't doing any harm. Maybe pick up a 4th Chicago Jensen (working or not) in case a buyer wants it if you ever sell it? ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Gary Onofrio (Sonny Jr.) originally equipped his 4X10 amps with 2 alnicos and 2 ceramic mag speakers. Never satisfied, he later replaced one of the ceramics with another alnico. (Part of the Super Sonny mod). I think his explanation was that the ceramic adds a little bark to the mix. Every player seems to have certain preferences, pretty subjective really.
you could yank the original speakers, buy a vintage chicago jensen, buy 4 more cheaper webers, slap them in for gigging, and replace the originals + the jensen if and when you sold it. but if you rarely use it anyway, that would be pointless. but that would be the utilitarian and mercenary approach.
a 1955 Fender Bassman would probably come with the large 6l6G coke bottle tubes like the ones that came in the old Masco PA's, I love these tubes for harp.I think any 6l6 will sound good if it is fully tested working tube. I don't think subbing 6l6 with new or nos makes much of a difference to the sound
@Walter: Yikes! Wouldn't a utilitarian analysis consider the time and money investment? Your suggestion sounds time consuming and, at least in the short run, notably more expensive. Too much work! I believe that old amps are for optimizing and using. I'd rather not let my current behavior toward the amp be governed by some imagined future date at which I might sell it--especially after I've just stated that I don't intend to sell it.
I'm tempted by the comments I've received to leave the speakers as-is but play around with a tubes a bit. Thanks to all for suggestions.........
@Kudzurunner " I'd rather not let my current behavior toward the amp be governed by some imagined future date at which I might sell it--especially after I've just stated that I don't intend to sell it."
Don't take offence at continued references to resale, it may just be that you are the last honest man alive (apart from me, of course) but I hear, "I'll never sell it" quite a lot...usually pror to said amp appearing on E-bay, especially if a similar model hs just sold for a hugely inflated price! ;-) People's circumstances/priorities sometimes change, it would be remiss not to consider the possibility when giving advice, it's more that, rather than we're ignoring, or don't believe you.
Don't take offense at continued references to resale, it may just be that you are the last honest man alive (apart from me, of course) but I hear, "I'll never sell it" quite a lot...usually prior to said amp appearing on E-bay, especially if a similar model his just sold for a hugely inflated price! ;-)
That's funny. I have several friends who live by this modus operandi. They will talk up the piece of gear. After the passage of a short period of time, the item will be available for one of a variety of reasons.
If you like the sound of the amp, I wouldn't mess with it. I try not to mess with a good thing.
When I bought my Commando from a friend (killer harp player) I determined to keep it forever. So far it's still safe in my gear closet/office. I have since bought a few other smaller amps as a hedge against selling the Commando. You know, if I get hard up, the Gibson, Masco, or one of the Zoos goes first. There's a sweet Kendrick and Sonny Jr. in there as well, so I think it's safe. But if someday I need a kidney, who knows, they may all go. Having said all of that, I still considered the asking price in terms of what I thought it would be worth down the road.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2011 4:10 PM
