|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Tuning for Blues Harp
Tuning for Blues Harp
Page:
1
Frank
19 posts
Oct 25, 2011
4:54 AM
|
For the harps that you guys and gals have set up for blowin the blues....what do you personally like to have your flat 7th's tuned to?
|
Adam Hamil
4 posts
Oct 25, 2011
6:14 AM
|
For someone playing blues, I will usually tune my b7s (draw 5 and draw 9) about 8-10 ยข flat relative to the tonic.
----------
C. Adam Hamil
Free Reed Instrument Technician
|
Frank
22 posts
Oct 25, 2011
6:49 AM
|
Thanks Adam...I am presently tuning my Blues harp b7ths to 20 cents off a 442 tonic calibration and I am concidering tuning them like your doing 10 cents flat of the tonic. I currently am tuning my 3rds 10 cents flat and I am happy with them
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2011 6:50 AM
|
barbequebob
1774 posts
Oct 25, 2011
7:43 AM
|
What you may be looking for as being a blues tuning is basically nothing but what's been known as just intonation. The two most common ones used over the years are 7 limit just intonation and 19 limit just intonation. Until the mid 80's, the standard tuning out of the box what 7LJI, which is what harp players, especially the traditonal players had been using for decades.
When Huang Harmonicas came around in 1983, they used a different one known as 19LJI, and then Hohner switched to that in 1985. Hohner totally abandoned just intonation in 1992 and, except for the 364S and the GM, they began using comprimise tunings, one for the MS series, which was made closer to ET tuning, and the other for the MB/Sp20, keeping it closer to JI.
Below is a link listing the tunings of most diatonic harps over the years.
If you were to play along with the records of both Walters, both Sonny Boys, Sonny Terry, and Paul Butterfield, the tuning of the diatonics are in 7LJI.
http://www.deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473.html?KW=Diatonic+Harmonica+tunings
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Frank
24 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:09 AM
|
Thanks for your in-put Bob...Very helpful!!! BTW the blues you lay down are TOP Notch - both Vocally and Harp wise!!!
It looks like I am leaning towards Hohners Compromise Tunings for the Marine Band...
Hohner Compromise Tunings for the Marine Band/Special 20/Marine Band Deluxe since 1992
BLOW 0 -12 1+ 0 -12 1+ 0 -12 1+ 0
HOLE# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW 2+ 1+ -11 2+ -12 3+ -11 2+ -12 3+
Seydels Compromise Tuning looks real good too.
Seydel Compromise Tuning since 2007
BLOW 0 -14 2+ 0 -14 2+ 0 -14 2+ 0
HOLE# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW 4+ 2+ -12 4+ -2 6+ -12 4+ -2 6+
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2011 8:10 AM
|
hvyj
1902 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:18 AM
|
I like the draw 5 to be dead on in tune at A442. Not flat. If i want to drop it to a "blues seventh" or "harmonic seventh" I'll put a little quarter tone bend on it. If the D5 is tuned flat, the harp sounds out of tune to my ear.
On most harps (even those tuned ET) the draw 2 and draw 3 play somewhat flat anyway. i don't like it, but I can live with it. However, personally, I can't stand playing a harp with a flat draw 5. I think it makes me sound too out of tune with the rest of the band.
|
HarpNinja
1805 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:27 AM
|
19 Limit...I am not crazy about the 5 blow being so flat, but it is a good compromise for 2nd and 1st position blues. Honestly, unless I was doing a lot of chording, I'd go with the Crossover tuning.
All the single notes sound in tune. Also, with how I use chords playing blues, it is always as part of a tongue slap, etc. I hardly ever chug chords against a full band. I am much more likely to play single notes or obvious notes where having a great sounding chord isn't necessary.
In all honesty, I can't think of people who play long blow and draw chords with a band where beating is really obvious. Generally, the chording is so fast or short that I doubt most can tell. Also, I doubt many players play the chords with equal breath pressure against all holes to the point of playing a perfect chord anyways.
If you are playing solo, then the flatted notes aren't so obvious so long as you are in tune with yourself.
Hence, my love of the Crossover tuning. It sounds better than ET, but lets you play single notes in many genres.
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
|
hvyj
1904 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:37 AM
|
"so long as you are in tune with yourself."
I can aspire to being in tune with the cosmos, but it's most important for me be in tune with the other musicians. i don't play solo, so just being in tune with myself is an irrelevant consideration FOR ME.
Btw, I've been fooling around with a Marine Band Deluxe I got as a birthday gift. It beats on the low end. I don't find that beating is a problem on ET harps,or on the MBD, but I was surprised that a MBD would beat. Live and learn.
|
Frank
25 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:47 AM
|
I love The sound of just intonation and the music that meshes with that particular tuning.
I lean heavily towards playing music where utilizing a more just tuning is the way to go.
For other music where the notes that are tuned flat would pose a problem, I'd choose a different tuning if possible.
I'm curious what tunings other players are using the most?
|
HarpNinja
1806 posts
Oct 25, 2011
8:53 AM
|
@hvjy Right, which is why I say that something like the Crossover tuning is more impressive to me. Nothing is overly flat and it is very easy to flatten a reed subconciously to match the band. It is hard (and sounds worse) when trying to sharpen a note with technique.
Another point to consider is that if the band is at 440 and the harp is at 442 or 443, it is already sharp in comparison...often more than the -12 or so cent difference in some of these tunings. In fact, when played to pitch, those flat notes, it can be aruged, are the ones technically in tune.
IMO, tuning to 442 for almost any player is the way to go. Without thinking about it, most of us will flatten the pitch to match the band. It also helps keep one from needing to tune as often.
The only tuning I've played blues with that I hated was 7 Limit. It sounded so flat compared to the rest of the band (set at 442). 19 Limit works better for the draw notes and is harder to hate on the blow notes...although I see its limitations - but the 2, 5, and 8 blow are usually played to pitch in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd much anyways...when talking traditional blues. By contrast, I use those notes all the time.
This sorta helps: http://www.petersontuners.com/iforum/lofiversion/index.php?t506.html
This really helps: http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=15
I am willing to concede that much of this is a bit of a placebo effect (which tunings work better than others) and are totally at the mercy of the tuning of other musicians. If you play with a bass and/or guitar player, you are out of tune with each other all the time.
The only person I know that are always "in-tune" in a typical band are keyboard players and one bass player buddy of mine. His bass is always in tune and he only has to tune it like twice a year. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Even he, though, is at the mercy of the tune, which, it can be shown, is probably not as accurate as one thinks.
See evidence: http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=123
Tuning, like many things, is not an absolute. Right is only right when compared to left, but it can just as easily be left. Being in tune with anyone isn't as simple as it may seem. The best you can hope for is close enough. Heck, even when just examining a harmonica in isolation, what one person tuned to perfection may sound out of tune to a different player based on so many factors.
I've done the "test" too with harmonica that were tuned by others to see if they would be in tune upon arrival and nothing ever is. Nothing (relative to the person who tuned it). If the octaves don't beat, then it is probably as good as it is going to get, lol. It really takes little effort to get the tuning to sound 10 or more cents off based on attack, etc.
So many variables to consider...I often think that for most tunings, making sure the harp is tuned relative to itself is the best way to go and the changes in temperment aren't as obvious as one thinks. Can we really hear a difference between 2 cents and 4 cents without a tuner?
To further compound the issue, if a note is dead on, that doesn't mean that the next octave up will be dead on when beating stops...Argh, it can be so overwhelming!!!
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2011 9:00 AM
|
hvyj
1905 posts
Oct 25, 2011
9:19 AM
|
When played with performance level breath pressure and volume, the pitch of almost all harps will flatten, especially on the draw notes. So, playing a harp tuned to pure ET @A442 will put most players in tune with a band tuned to A440.
|
Frank
26 posts
Oct 25, 2011
9:23 AM
|
Thanks for chiming in Mike, a lot great things to ponder that you contribute. I use to tune my harps only when needed and then I'd simply tune it so the octaves were in unison. I've just recently got a kick of wanting my harps to be much more chord friendly and like I mentioned previously, the music I love to play can tolerate the tunings that are more towards the just side of things. I am sure that eventually I will come to a happy compromise with how I want my harps tuned so that they will sound a bit more in tune with other music as well.
|
HarpNinja
1808 posts
Oct 25, 2011
9:32 AM
|
Right, which is what I was getting at. In order to move from 442 to 440 is a bigger jump than the jump from 0 cents to -12 cents on a harmonica.
Point being, if the person tuning the harmonica is the person who will play the harmonica and they want to sound in tune with the band they could do the following:
Play ET and realize that they are probably going to flatten pitches to match what they hear...
Tune the harmonica in tune to itself playing notes how they play them live. If they tuned -12 at 442 relative to how they will play that note as part of a chord (or melody), it will sound relatively in tune (approx A440). Not kinda in tune, but literally relative.
What they will probably fine is that, compared to using a light breath force (and whatever advice is shared online), their just intonation isn't as just as they thought.
This is getting heady for me to explain, but if you realize the difference in cents between notes compared to A440 and say A442, there is wiggle room to get good sounding chords at performance levels without sounding more out of tune then hitting a note at A442 set to 0 cents.
Besides tuning breath force, I also question how long a harmonica should be "warmed up" for before tuning. I don't know about you guys, but I don't play the same harmonica for more than a few minutes. It then sits and is played later...I don't warm it up in my hand at a gig before playing.
Granted, when tuning I try to be as consistent as possible in my approach, but I can't promise that is how the harmonica will be used in the real world.
This all goes back to my love of the Crossover tuning and ET over other options. Nothing is so flat that it sounds out of tune when played with a band in the real world, and I can still flatten single notes while I play to match the band.
Assuming, again, that the band is really in tune. Which they probably aren't. Even if they are 3-4 cents off, in theory, then I should sound like crap against them unless our ears allow for wiggle room and inferring the correct pitch...which would mean that many compromise tunings would also then sound in tune live, etc.
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
|
nacoran
4800 posts
Oct 25, 2011
10:26 AM
|
I play ET Lee Oskars. I don't touch the tuning. I play more like a trumpet than a typical harp though... lots of single notes.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
harpwrench
535 posts
Oct 25, 2011
10:29 AM
|
I'd visit Pat Missin's website if you want accurate knowledge you can take to the bank.
There's some very wrong info in this thread that will really mislead someone wanting to do it right.
|
HarpNinja
1809 posts
Oct 25, 2011
11:10 AM
|
Obviously since harpwrench posted, and I very much take to the bank anything he says, I went back to reread my posts to make sure I said what I meant to say.
For whatever reason, I don't always to a good job of getting to my point on this board.
I like the Crossover tuning for ME because of how I play and how that fits into the blues context of what I play. Most my harps for blues are the Hohner compromise or 19limit. My regular gig harps are all ET or Crossover as I feel for MY style, they will fit with a range of music.
I am not sure, though, if I was after just playing blues I would use something like 19LI unless I felt I heard it make a difference compared to the Hohner compromise(I would not use ET, though). For most people, it is probably good enough. Assuming you aren't extremely comfortable working on your own harps.
One of the pages you should check out from Pat is this one:
http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun8.html
This has been my tuning bible - well not so much the specific temperment, but the routine and considerations. There is also a chapter from Richard Sleigh's book that I reference (his videos on YouTube are great).
Here is something I'd like to highlight:
"It is impossible to tune an interval so that it is perfectly in tune at every possible pressure level and under different attacks, so I aim for it being beat-free with medium breath pressure (my definition of "medium" varying according to the playing style of the customer for whom I am setting up the harmonica, of course). This usually results in the lower reeds being a little sharper when checked individually against a tuner with medium playing pressure."
If you read further, it explains beating, etc. Bottom line is, you have to use your ears when tuning and if you just read the tuner, you can be off and have beating, etc. To conclude, if you go by ear, you won't necessarily have perfect readings on your tuner.
IMO, there are so many variables to consider when discussing tuning that it is hard to speak in absolutes. Most compromises, depending on your attack, etc, will sound better for chords than ET. You run the risk of those compromises not working so well for relatively in tune single notes with a band, but that can vary based on factors as well.
There was a thread a while back where Michael Rubin expressed a number of concerns regarding tuning and it staying consistent - which was off topic from this, but I drug some of that theme into this thread...
I am obviously going to the extreme in some instances to illustrate how being in tune can be done to death.
________
What my original response to this thread should have been was...
Find a compromise harp you like based on the harmonica model you like more so than the tuning. Unless you are comfortable tuning your own harps, most of those were created for blues players and should sound intune with a band under regular circumstances.
When you have to tune, use a balance of your tuner and your ears.
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
|
Frank
27 posts
Oct 25, 2011
11:12 AM
|
I understand what your conveying Mike...So considering what you clued me in on, I can tune my b7ths to -12 cents give or take a cent or two of 442 and in theory I am playing that note at 440. And if that note was tuned -24 cents of 442, THEN that note is actually -12 flat of 440, is this correct?
|
HarpNinja
1810 posts
Oct 25, 2011
11:20 AM
|
I made it more complicated then it needs to be. Just be aware of the fact that the tuning will change based on your attack.
IMO, you should tune with more than a light attack unless that is how you always play. You will naturally flatten notes when you play harder, so if you tune to -12 cents with light force, but play harder than that for real, that note might sound a lot flatter.
In isolation, that -12 at A442 shouldn't sound real "flat" against a band assuming it was tuned with something like a medium pressure, as it is still going to sound very close to the band at A440 (and remember that they aren't at a perfect A440 either).
Why I don't like 7-Limit is that some notes are so flat that even with appropriate breath pressure, they sound flat against the band, IMO.
None of my 19-Limit harps have ever sounded bad playing blues with a band. But I don't think the Hohner compromise or Seydel compromise sound bad either.
----------
Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
|
harpwrench
536 posts
Oct 25, 2011
12:03 PM
|
You're making too big of a fuss over the 5 draw Frank. If it's a compromise temperament, the math basically doesn't matter because it's not a just interval anymore.
Tune your 5-9 draw to straight up 440 or a couple cents sharper like a MB or SP20 and call it a day- that suits a lot of guys just fine. If you think that sounds flat, tune it sharper until you like it. If you want the chord including the 5 draw to be smooth like the old days, that 5-9 draw will be almost a quarter tone flat of 440. This requires choosing your phrasing carefully so it doesn't stick out.
5-draw is not flattened at all in 19-limit just.
19-limit and 7-limit are identical except for where the 5-9 draw is tuned. Stock MB temperament is basically the same except the 5-9 draw offset splits the middle.
442 to 440 isn't a larger jump than 12 cents, it's only about 8 cents.
|
Frank
28 posts
Oct 25, 2011
1:21 PM
|
Good idea Joe...So what I'm going to do for NOW, is tune my 3rds and b7ths to 440 and the rest to 444...Thanks for all the help fellas, really helpful info, for me anyway!
440 makes my 3rds and 7ths around 16 cents flat of 444...
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2011 8:43 AM
|
barbequebob
1775 posts
Oct 27, 2011
9:40 AM
|
The Seydel comprimise tuning is almsot identical to 19LJI and the only difference between the two is wheras 19LJI has 5 & 9 draw tuned 1.5 cents sharp, the Seydel comprimise tuning has those two tuned 2 cents flat.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Post a Message
|
