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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Jamsessions - Familiar Song, strange key. How to?
Jamsessions - Familiar Song, strange key. How to?
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FreeWilly
46 posts
Oct 19, 2011
11:30 AM
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Hello all!
The other day I went to my second jamsession. Since last time (few months ago) I have practiced a lot, and I have memorized many a blues standard-solo by now.
2 problems came up. First: I couldn't hear a note I was playing. 2 guitars, drums with sticks, keys, bass, everything there and LOUD too. I know there's already a thread on this. Just wanted to share my frustration. It's just selfish isn't it? Who likes loud? The crowd didn't, that was clear. And still nobody seemed to care. (/complaining over)
Now for my thread-starting-reason: does anyone have experience with Bands playing familiar tunes in strange keys? For example. I can play Got my mojo working. But in D? E is a bit low already, but D is just crazy? But that kinda goes. But what about My Babe in C! I played it (that is, LW's solo (ish.. :) )) cross on an F harp (which I like for F harp kinda stuff), which sounded goofy. What do you guys do? Do you play it in another position? Than you can't play your heavily woodshedded solo-copy anymore... I would really like some advice on the matter!
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Littoral
408 posts
Oct 19, 2011
11:35 AM
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Sorry, but those keys are goofy. I don't think the situation was on the up & up -in other words somebody is f-ing with somebody. You really have to try to change mojo to D.
Too Loud? I don't sit in.
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FreeWilly
47 posts
Oct 19, 2011
11:57 AM
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Well, those guys were pretty serious about it. I thought I misheard, and played a test-note on my A harp. It was D alright. With My babe I asked if we were going to change to 12-bar for the solo, and the answer was: we just go along with it. Was this just a goofy session? Please feel free to find it goofy Littoral: I didn't call the keys :)
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Joe_L
1545 posts
Oct 19, 2011
12:37 PM
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Well... It's a jam...
First, I would recommend that you quit complaining. It makes you sound like a complainer.
Second, if you aren't the singer (and the tune features vocals), you play it in whatever key the singer sings it in and you don't complain about it. If you don't like it, start singing and learn how to lead the band.
Third, harp players have it easy. You can just switch the harp when the key of the song changes, but the pattern stays the same. Sure, it'll sound different, but it is hardly the end of the world. Playing your heavily woodshedded solo-copy, shouldn't change. The pattern will be the same.
Fourth, the volume is what it is. If you don't dig it, don't play.
Finally, it's a jam. There are going to be times when you don't get to play. There are going to be times when you do get to play and wished you hadn't. Be flexible and go with the flow. Don't expect much.
If you are going to complain about a jam, don't go. Do something else. It ruins the experience for everyone. Think about it from the others players perspective.
Here comes this new harp player to his second jam and he's complaining about volume and the keys we do the songs in...
How does that sound to you?
Be patient and take it in stride...
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2011 12:39 PM
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JInx
99 posts
Oct 19, 2011
1:14 PM
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For me, any key will do. It don't bother me either way. My ears are not good. Sometimes I can't even tell if one sound is higher/lower pitched then another.
But my girlfriend, she can hear it different. She claims some deeper hearing of it all. She has perfect pitch and prefers different keys for different "moods(?)"
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FreeWilly
48 posts
Oct 19, 2011
5:40 PM
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@Joe_L
Of course I haven't complained about those things at the actual jam. I just take things as they come, and I think it's fantastic that unexperienced people can come to jams and play. Everyone was extremely nice to me too btw. Fore and aft.
I was just trying to share some observations and opinions in here to see if things I encountered are normal or not. And - more importantly - how I can go about them when confronted with them. (btw: are you a bit traumatized about complainers at jams you organized or something?)
I take it from your remarks that going to a jam means expecting the worst :)
So it's 1:1 on that regard, with one neutral remark.. Thanks so far everyone!
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2011 5:56 PM
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Joe_L
1549 posts
Oct 19, 2011
6:14 PM
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@FreeWilly - you were the one who said you were complaining and frustrated. Each of the problems you mentioned has an easy solution.
1. An inability to hear themselves (which goes with the territory of being a harp player)
If you are playing through a PA, try to get close to a speaker so you can hear, but not close enough where you are feeding back. If you are playing through an amp, turn it up or mic it.
2. Playing tunes in "strange keys".
Start singing and leading the band. Pick the keys that you like playing in and hope your voice falls into that range. It's more things to work on, but you'll be much happier in the long run. If you want to play, "Got My Mojo Working" in the key of E, you're in charge. If you can only sing in D, you'll soon learn why you should do the tune in D.
The reasons why people attend blues jams vary. Some people are just learning to play. Some people are have more experience and want their 15 minutes of fame on stage. You'll find some people who go to blues jams to play anything but blues. Some love Blues. Unless the jam you attend is hosted by a harp player, harp players may not always receive a warm reception. Sometimes, you may encounter pro-level players at a jam. More frequently, the quality of musicianship may not be pro-level.
If you have reasonable goals and success criteria (i.e. expectations), your level of satisfaction at jams will be met.
I'm not traumatized at all. When I've run jams, the feedback from players and the audience has been pretty positive. Additionally, I'm pretty accommodating to new harp players. Quite often, I will invite a harp player on stage, lead the band, set up the tune, sing it and let them do their thing. There is nothing worse than crashing and burning, but it does happen to everyone.
Lately, most of my experiences have been pretty positive, but sometimes I crash and burn. Since, I took the advice that I shared above, most of the time something fails on stage, it's my own fault.
Plus, if I find a jam with characteristics that I don't dig, I don't attend it. If I go to a jam and don't see people that I want to play with. I don't sign up. We all have options for entertainment.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2011 6:20 PM
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hvyj
1885 posts
Oct 19, 2011
6:19 PM
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Going to jams means expecting and learning to handle the unexpected. That's how we learn and that's how we grow.
If you are an electric player there will be times you can't hear yourself. That's reality. Get used to it and learn how to deal with it. A musician should know which notes are where on his or her instrument, so you go to the notes you know are safe for that chord and hope you can pick up some sound bouncing back at you from the far wall. When you can't hear, it ain't easy and it ain't fun but underplay if you have to in order to stay tight.
Changing keys? just change harps. NBD. As a diatonic player you instrument is your performing SET of harps. Lower tuned harps respond better to a softer attack, Higher tuned harps respond well to a sharp attack.. Learn to adjust your technique to handle different keys.
i don't understand heavily woodshedding a solo. A solo is a more or less spontaneous expression of how you feel at the moment in relation to what the other musicians are playing. It's true that a solo that sounds good on a G harp might not sound good on an F harp or vice versa. So play a different solo. NBD. Learn to get around on your instrument. Musicians at a jam are JAMMING. Don't expect them to dumb it down so you can stay in your comfort zone. Getting out of the comfort zone is what jams are about anyway.
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Jehosaphat
111 posts
Oct 19, 2011
9:19 PM
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@Joe and @Hvyj
That is exactly my take on the whole jamming thing.But you guys put it way better thn i could.It is strangely reassuring when you realise that you are not the first Harpist to have problems at jams ..I gave them up for years but lately with some more nous and experience I've learned to cope.
Well at least with a 1 1V V 'cos you know the 'safe' holes and even if you can't hear a thing well you can bluff your way through..but the minute atune with a non standard chord structure comes on ,if i can't hear myself ,i (gracefully) leave the stage.
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nacoran
4777 posts
Oct 19, 2011
10:47 PM
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Make sure you have a full set of harps and you don't have to worry about odd keys, as long as they tell you what they are.
As for the 12 Bar thing, never assume a guitar player knows what you are talking about! Harp players get picked on for not knowing theory, but some guitar players are doing it mostly by ear too, or by sight; I watch the string guys in my band teaching each other parts and there are times when they are going entirely off of how the fingers look on the strings (they still manage to sound great but it can get confusing as a harp player when I whisper to the guy next to me to ask the key and he has no clue).
As for how to complain effectively, it's all in how you complain. I find if you don't blame the other guy most people are willing to compromise on how things are done. Let them know what you need so you can participate and find the guy who can help you out. Just because the first guy you ask doesn't know what the changes are doesn't mean no one does.
And for the volume issue, move around on the stage. If there is a sound guy ask him how you are coming through to make sure someone hears you. If you are playing with guys playing electrics you may actually want to get away from the speakers (and the drum). You could play around using one earplug (or even two, the harp actually carries through your head pretty well). Don't take sound levels lightly though. We had a thread once about tinnitus and it's scary how many forum members have it, and it's no fun if you can't hear yourself anyway. You could even ask for audience feedback. Most places want their customers to be happy.
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Nate
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FreeWilly
49 posts
Oct 20, 2011
3:32 AM
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Thanks for all the tips!
Seems like that night was pretty standard. I thought perhaps something strange was going on. As Littoral seemed to agree on.
I think it will take a while for me to trust myself to sing on stage, although I probably could.. To shy for now.
About practicing solo's. I find that to be the part of my practicing were I get the most out of. It's one thing to play something in the same vein as someone before you did, but to really get it down.. that's hard! Perhaps you shouldn't perform it. That's another thing. But then again, why are we playing familiar songs at all? But I get the point about spontaneity and agree with it. I bet hvyj, you yourself know a lot of solo's, don't you? You're just beyond that are you?
The thing about string players not knowing the blues-vocabulary is an eye-opener to me.. thanks :)
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 3:33 AM
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Frank
12 posts
Oct 20, 2011
4:45 AM
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If your familiar and experienced at leading a band - in other words > your able to explain to the other players what kind of groove you want them to lay down for you, then you have a much better chance at being able to play your solos the way you practiced them.
If your in a jam setting where you are just a "sideman" your better of being well versed at improvising the blues. Just having a memorized set of licks at a jam session is a recipe for a train wreck of a solo....
If you want to play a particular key of harmonica or whatever you have in mind that your interested in, then you need to communicate these things to someone at the jam who can help you out.
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hvyj
1886 posts
Oct 20, 2011
6:12 AM
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"I bet hvyj, you yourself know a lot of solo's, don't you?'
Nope. i've never learned a solo note for note. I've picked up a lot of riffs, licks and ideas from recorded solos, but I've never actually tried to learn a recorded solo note for note. I mean, while that would probably be good exercise, the musician who originally played it probably never played it the same way twice anyway. And since someone else has already played THAT, probably better than i could, what's the point of me just copying it? I don't even play my own solos the same way every time.
Now, practicing SOLOING (as opposed to learning or rehearsing a solo) is something I do quite a bit. I'll listen to a tune and come up with things to blow over it. i listen to music all the time and sometimes if I don't have a harp I'll THINK of what I'd play over that tune. So, yeah, I'm sort of working up ideas for solos constantly. But they are always different when i actually perform them.
The only times I'll woodshed a solo is if I tried something and screwed it up. Then, if I can actually remember what I did, I may try to refine it to figure out where my mistake was and what i need to do to make the idea I was reaching for fit properly. Also, if a tune has a head or hook I need to know in order to solo off of it, I'l practice that part pretty hard (like, for example, the sax riff to Bob Seger's "Turn the Page"). There's no sax SOLO in that tune, but if you are playing harp on it, you need to be able to play that sax riff note-for-note. Then, if you are given a solo, it sounds best if you work from that riff, so I'll practice a part like that pretty hard so I'll be able to construct a solo off it.
Then, every now and then there's a tune where the solo is so much a part of the tune you've got to do it note-for-note for the tune to sound right. Example: the organ solo on the Rascals' "Good Lovin" which is playable on harp. It's short, but in a band with no keyboard, the harp has to nail that for the tune to sound right. So, yeah, I'll learn something like that because it is such a well defined part of the tune it needs to be played note-for-note. But, offhand, I can't think of a blues solo I've ever learned note for note. But that's just my take on it. i know plenty of harp players who can regurgitate Little Walter instrumentals on command. Personally, I've never bothered to learn to do that.
"But then again, why are we playing familiar songs at all?'
Well, so everyone has has a common frame of reference or familiar structure to work from and interpret. But more often than not at jams I'm playing on tunes I've never heard before. Or some hot guitar player will make up a vamp and the rest of the musicians will take off along for the ride. i mean after all, it's a JAM, not a rehearsal.
Btw, IMHO, in general, the most important aspect of a solo is your interaction with the drummer--where you place notes in relation to the beat and how you vary dynamics. TIME is a very important consideration. so, don't get so wrapped up in what notes you are playing or trying to remember what you woodshedded that you ignore WHERE you put each note in relation to what the drummer is laying down. Of course, this assumes the drummer knows what he's doing. To solo effectively you've got to LISTEN to what the rest of the band is doing as you go. Interaction is crucial, so don't get so wrapped up in what you are playing that you lose track of what's going on around you--which is bound to happen if you woodshed solos.
Now, some tunes have a signature lick, riff or melody that needs to be included or referenced in a solo for it to sound right and those sometimes need to be learned and played note-for-note. But that's just a part of the larger improvisation.
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 6:48 AM
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FreeWilly
50 posts
Oct 20, 2011
7:29 AM
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Cool. Thanks. I should practice soloing more consciously and with more focus.>off to the woodshed!
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hvyj
1887 posts
Oct 20, 2011
9:03 AM
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Since I've been babbling on and on about this, let me add something else. By saying that soloing is playing what one feels. i don't mean that one shouldn't practice stuff like scales, modes, arpeggios and melodies in a disciplined way. That sort of musically structured practice develops technique and gives your playing discipline. Among other things, it provides the vocabulary to play what you feel and helps your playing to make musical sense. For example, if you can play a certain scale, it makes it easier to find notes you need on the fly during a solo.
For starters, if you can learn the blues scale, the major pentatonic scale and the minor pentatonic scale well enough so you can run them up and down in your sleep, you can get a whole lot of mileage out of just knowing that. i mean, there's a lot more to know, but that's not a bad place to start. FWIW.
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LittleBubba
118 posts
Oct 20, 2011
9:41 AM
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Free Willy, be patient too. It all won't happen overnight.
Don't put too much pressure on any one night. We all want every night to be great-- whether it's a jam or a gig-- but the reality is that those special nights don't occur every time you play.
Every situation is different, even if you're playin' with the same guys all the time. Some nights you fight equipment issues; some nights you lack energy; other times, it all falls together.
Listen to as many of the old standards with harp parts as you can, so that you can approximate any signature licks even if you haven't practiced 'em. That'll come through just sheer playin' time, whether woodsheddin' or jammin'.
Put in your time. I've got an acquaintance who started goin' to jams about 3-4 years ago, and he was terrible. But he underplayed (as has been suggested earlier) and hung on, while he gradually got better. Now, he's heard enough tunes and been through enough that he's become very serviceable as a sideman.
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 9:42 AM
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harmonicanick
1335 posts
Oct 20, 2011
9:53 AM
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Last night in a jazz jam the leader said Fm on a lovely soulful slow number.
I eventually chose Eb after a bit of fumbling..in 3rd
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Joe_L
1552 posts
Oct 20, 2011
10:28 AM
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"But then again, why are we playing familiar songs at all?"
It depends on what your goal is.
If your goal is to create something that sounds musical, there needs to be some degree of structure. Typically, that is a tune that is somewhat familiar to all of the people on the bandstand.
Here is what works for me.
A song that is familiar doesn't have to be well known. In fact, most of the tunes I do are somewhat obscure, but the grooves will be based on stuff that most blues players will have heard.
I like to keep things very simple. Nothing fancy. No breaks. No unusual changes. If I have to spend a lot of time explaining it, it's going to get messed up because I will screw up the explanation or the recipient will glaze over and miss something. Either way, the result is the same. Train wreck.
If your goal is to stand on the stage and make noise, then you don't have to worry about playing something that is familiar. Anything goes and anything can happen. Most of the time, it will be nothing good.
There has to be some common ground, otherwise your going to be participating in a train wreck and not making musical magic. Train wrecks can be funny, but they are rarely fun.
I should practice soloing more consciously and with more focus
You should do a lot of listening. Buy some records, listen to the song. Listen to what the players do and how they complement each others effort. Your goal should be exposed to a variety of music and to learn a variety of things. If you are a Blues player, remember that Blues is a huge genre. When on the bandstand accompanying others, do a lot of listening and play what fits.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 10:32 AM
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Michael Rubin
304 posts
Oct 20, 2011
11:19 AM
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Hvjy: It is interesting how the Good Lovin solo is such a part of the song you must play it note for note to be accepted by the song, but a song like Got My Mojo Working or any other blues song, the solo should be improvised. I actually agree with you most of the time. However, I think for traditionalists, they hear the solo in Mojo as so much a part of the tune that if they do not play it note for note the song does not sound right. Muddy's harp players were required to play Walter's solos every night.
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hvyj
1889 posts
Oct 20, 2011
12:32 PM
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@Michael: You know, i almost edited my post to mention "Mojo." You're right. There ARE certain parts of that solo that are essential to the tune and while I don't play the entire solo note-for-note, there are large chunks of it that i do play pretty close to note-for-note. So, yeah, i agree with you about the solo on "Mojo."
I think the harp player on the original "Mojo" was James Cotton. But For sure it wasn't LW.
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tmf714
870 posts
Oct 20, 2011
12:49 PM
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On Saturday,Dec 1st,1956, Muddy entered the Chess studios with Little Walter,James Cotton,JImmy Rogers,Pat Hare,Otis Spann,Willie Dixon and Fred Below.
Cotton played harp on "I Live The Life I Love" and "Rock Me"-LIttle Walter played harp on "Look What Youv'e Done" and "Got My Mojo Working"-
For SURE it was Little Walter.
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 12:50 PM
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Greg Heumann
1306 posts
Oct 20, 2011
1:19 PM
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Totally agree with what has been said - Joe's comments in particular. Let me add a couple of things.
1) Keys of songs. I sing. I have to sing tunes in keys that work for me. True musicians accept this. When I play harp with someone else, I adjust. I play with one guy who does a lot of stuff in C. I hate playing the regular F harp all the time. SO - I'll pick up a Bb and play in 3rd. Or choose my Low F. Or play some C in 1st. You have options as a harp player. I would love to do mojo in D because I love the sound of a G harp through my amp!
2) Hearing yourself - this can certainly be a problem at jams. It is very tough for beginners because they often have to "hunt" a little for what works and what doesn't - this is impossible if you can't hear yourself. You didn't say - were you playing through someone else's rig? The PA? Your own?
Sometimes you can move to a different location on stage - closer to the amp and sometimes further from the amp. (If you're standing right next to the amp it can be very hard to hear.) Get as close to the speaker as you can but stay within its cone angle. You'll hear a larger amp better 5-10 feet in front of it than right next to it.
When you're soloing you SHOULD be able to hear yourself. It isn't always the case - as you get better you'll know you're playing the right stuff - but ideally I like to hear my amp - clearly when I'm soloing, and just barely when I'm comping behind others (anything else means I am too loud.)
Ultimately you are at the mercy of the system you're playing through, and the sound guy if you're lucky enough to have one. If you want to be able to hear yourself get yourself a HarpGear 50, A Sonny Jr Avenger, a Meteor, a Harp King, a Super Reverb - and a good mic - problem solved.
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/Greg
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tomaxe
21 posts
Oct 20, 2011
1:37 PM
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It's definitely Little Walter on the original studio take of "Mojo", but for whatever reason the Muddy version from Newport (1960?) and his subsequent versions seem to be the "arrangement" that everyone knows, and that has the very distinctive Cotton solo with the stops and starts. Walter's solo is more Walter-like, if that makes any sense, at least to my ears!
Coming to a jam with solos memorized as a beginner is probably a bad idea, better to have some licks that you can play over blues changes memorized—that you can play fast or slow on any key harp—than to have some fixed idea of what to play when someone calls out a song.
When musicians are too loud in a jam-friendly situation i think its up to the leader of the jam to figure out how to handle it and see who is at fault, read the sitaution—who is enjoying this...sometimes beginning players are drowned out because they may be tentative, don't know how to use mics/amps properly, etc...it may not ALWAYS be the jerk guitar player and a lousy rock drummer, although they are most often the culprit.
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harmonicanick
1336 posts
Oct 20, 2011
2:02 PM
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When you're soloing you SHOULD be able to hear yourself
So, so important, the best jam sessions are when you can hear yourself breathe...
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Michael Rubin
305 posts
Oct 20, 2011
2:51 PM
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I went to the Augusta blues week when I was in my early 20's and a woman called out a Jimmy Reed song in the key of C. Bob Margolin was a teacher and he almost had a conniption fit explaining (read yelling) that you never play Jimmy Reed in any key but A or E. (Actually Reed himself liked Bb and F, probably with a capo)
I think very few people are aware of the highs and lows of harps keys, much less the personalities of the positions. Often in the studio I have to show them 3 positions or low and high harps to find what works. Onstage, you've got to roll with the punches. Knowing positions well helps, knowing chromatic really helps.
And knowing another instrument helps the most. When someone calls out a tune that only my squeaky F harp cross harp style would do, I pull out my mandolin!
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FreeWilly
51 posts
Oct 20, 2011
3:04 PM
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Haha. *Off to learn mandolin* Haha.
The case in question involved a Shure 520 through a PA. Not mine. I have all harps, but no gear. I'll just turn it up next time around (The leader offered that to me, because I was pretty low on volume, but I was to shy to let someone put in the work for me. That was stupid I guess.) I'm beyond hunting for notes if I'm honest. But it's still hard if you don't hear whether you hit the 9 or the 98.. I know what to play. I just didn't know whether I was actually playing it :)
Being patient I will. Thanks. I want to get this down. And with all this advice I'm bound for full feeling-expression capability I'm sure :)
(I don't pretend that someone is interested in what gear I have btw, but the question was asked. Not trying to make this about me...Glad Mr.Heumann covered all possibilities.)
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FreeWilly
52 posts
Oct 20, 2011
3:10 PM
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Oh, btw. Mr. Rubin. Can you really play every phrase you think of in your head in all positions? I can play in 1st and 3th (ish..), but I can't play the same things I can in cross harp. Is that even possible? (I know you pointed out every position has it's pro's and con's, but you get the point) In other words: do you translate riffs to all positions when needed? I mean, you don't want to play 3th position like on hard chicago stuff perhaps, but may be forced to play it for the reason's you mentioned. Or would that be a circumstance in which 'only cross or a mandolin will do'?
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Michael Rubin
306 posts
Oct 20, 2011
6:50 PM
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Freewilly:
I can play any note pattern in any position, but I am limited by the lowest note on the harp and the highest note on the harp. However, the further away the key of the harp is to the key of the song as measured by rotations around the circle of fifths, the more convoluted it becomes. However, because certain styles of music use different notes than the notes from the major scale, certain positions that you might not expect to have beauty, do.
If I were playing blues, it is unlikely that I would play anything but 1st,2nd or third position. To me, blues has a certain amount of tradition to it and the other positions have not made their way in yet. I used to want to be the visionary who brought them in, now I am not interested. Perhaps later I'll get interested again.
However, I have learned to play blues in all 12 positions and if you look up Michael Rubin harmonica 12 keys on youtube, you will see an example of what I was doing around 5 years ago. Sadly, I chose a compromised just tuned harp as opposed to an equal tuned harp and I think my intonation was the worse for it, plus I was and am still learning, so lots of intonation issues.
I do disagree with you about hard chicago stuff, there is plenty of 3rd position to be found in that tradition. But remember, even if you stick to the first three position, even if you played in the same octave of three different harps, creating the same notes, the personalities of the blow notes, draw notes, bent notes and overblows would create a totally different personality to your solo. Sometimes cross harp is the only appropriate move.
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Greg Heumann
1307 posts
Oct 20, 2011
9:05 PM
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What Michael is saying without saying it is - he can play SINGLE NOTES on any harp in any key. But CHORDS are used a lot in blues. a 2/3 combination, bent going to unbent, perhaps being the most common. I think that's what Michael means by "personalities" (in addition to different pitch ranges.) That's going to sound different in different positions. CHORDS people! That's why they make chromatic harmonicas in different keys!
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2011 9:24 PM
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FreeWilly
53 posts
Oct 21, 2011
1:57 AM
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That was a cool clip. Some notes indeed sounded a bit off, but it does inspire one to get to know the way around the harp better (It does for me at least). Even if you don't do that today, I bet a bunch that that improved your playing tons. Thanks!
Chords. Good point :)
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