Sarge
77 posts
Oct 13, 2011
5:46 PM
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Well, it's my personal opinion that you all are beating your heads against a wall. You will never change anything by protesting. You may get the politicians to tell you some more different lies, but that's about it.
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
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eharp
1501 posts
Oct 13, 2011
7:14 PM
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king- you are putting the cart before the horse. it is big corporations that have the control. the collusion is possible only because they have the money to buy the government with the less scruples than the other.
the entire problem, as adam mentioned, is that we took capitalism to such an extreme (as if americans dont do that to everything) and broke it. rich aint enough for some. gotta be richer!
corporations have a commodity or make a product. that's fine. and everyone buys these things. so far, so good. but, asks the corporations, do we make more money? they change the only thing in the capitalism equation that they can actually control: payroll of the workers!
and the easiest way to do that is to move the work to a country where $1 an hour is damn good!
the ceo is now thinking- that's what i'm talking about! he's hauling in huge amounts of profit. now mind you- much of these profits go to shareholders, which is probably, in a small scale, you and i! and we (yes, it is now we because you and i are liking an extra $.12 a share) are wondering how we can get more. there is one last glitch in the system that no one can control and that is uncle sam wanting his fair share.
but wait! with enough money tossed to the right politicians, laws can be changed, rules can be altered, fair is subjective! corporations are now calling the shots to all levels of government. they'll come to your state or city to do business but they sure aint gonna pay taxes or pay to have that old factory refurbished for their needs. and as soon as things get dicey- their off like greyhounds after a rabbit!
us the pro sports as a prime example. if a city wants to keep a team they need to pony up bigger stadiums with better suites for the high rollers and dont forget tax incentives. if a city refuses to be held hostage, san jose is just salivating for a pro team and is willing to give that and more for a chance to have a baseball team even though the stadium will only be 1/2 full for most of the games.
and i aint even gonna go into why we, and not just corporations that are to blame. just a quick peek at the answer...how many of us have bought some sort of harp gear on credit that we couldnt pay off as soon as the bill came in?
face it, folks. WE BROKE CAPITALISM and we are paying the piper for our greed.
and staging a protest in front of some rich guys house aint gonna do nothing but give him something to brag about at the country club!
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Pluto
180 posts
Oct 13, 2011
8:27 PM
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I know this thread is off topic, but there are rooms specifically for discussing politics. One such site is called "Paltalk". There you can get your fill of all the partisan fighting, because civil political discourse rarely occurs on line, nor does anyone effectively change another persons mind.
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Steamrollin Stan
108 posts
Oct 13, 2011
9:06 PM
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As a newbie i'm amazed Adam has not locked this topic.
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nacoran
4765 posts
Oct 13, 2011
9:38 PM
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Steamrollin, it's marked off topic and people have been civil towards each other. :)
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Aussiesucker
932 posts
Oct 13, 2011
11:11 PM
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I agree and also disagree with many of the posts here. I think for me Adam spelt it out most clearly.
Much the same argument is raging here in Oz.
HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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KingoBad
964 posts
Oct 13, 2011
11:40 PM
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Eharp, I appreciate what you are saying, but identifying the true cause of the problem is putting the cart in the correct spot.
The problem here is broken government, not greedy corporations.
The government sets the playing field, the corporations just play on it. It is when the players buy off the referees that we get the problems. We also have problems when the referees try to play the game too.
You can try to blame the corporations all you want. They are simply trying to maximize shareholder wealth. Sometimes they break the law. Then they are punished under the law. There is only one entity that can do anything about it - the one that writes, adjudicates and executes the law. Since we seem to have this overwhelming trust that Government will take care of us, it is no wonder we turn a blind eye to this collusive crap.
Capitalism is only broken, in so far as governmental intervention has screwed it up by political goals superseding proper reactions to economic realities.
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Danny
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Diggsblues
1038 posts
Oct 14, 2011
6:58 AM
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Those at the top take care of each other I work at a college in philadelphia. In the last five years the
administration has increased their rate of raises past what they're normal get by 18 million dollars.
They will tell us there is no money for raises and we want you to pay more into your medical benefits. I already pay 15 for a regular doctor's appointment and 20 for
a specialist. I'm part time so on top of that I pay
or 350 dollars a month for benefits.
Funny the President of the college makes way more than
a member of congress. He is paid by tax payer money and was never elected.He get 37,500 just for transportaion and living exepenses.
The college counsel, that's the in house lawyer has
gotten a 70 thousand dollars in raises in the last five years.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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mercedesrules
107 posts
Oct 14, 2011
1:33 PM
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......The "big corporations" don't fund the government; several of them almost failed bigtime (some did). The government bailed them out. My giant, well-known brokerage firm is now a little office in a "to big to fail" bank. The coercive state is the main "problem". Any entity that can create legal tender makes the rules.
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eharp
1502 posts
Oct 14, 2011
3:09 PM
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king- it is corps and special interest groups that set policy. this is one of the reasons we need to eliminate them from campaign donations. the gun organization is a prime example, as is the tobacco industry.
unfortunately, most presidents, and new politicians, dont realize this when making promises to get elected.
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KingoBad
965 posts
Oct 14, 2011
10:33 PM
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There will ALWAYS be special interest groups. Do you want to try and kill all of the rabbits, or simply close the gate?
The regulations should be on limiting the government's power to act inappropriately, not on the Liberty of those trying to pursue their own interests.
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Danny
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eharp
1504 posts
Oct 15, 2011
12:49 PM
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there is will be no closing the gate until you take away the special interests.
what? do you think the greed and corruption of the government will stop on its own accord?
as long as there is the temptation, they will not change.
of course, there will always be special interest groups. all i am trying to point out is that if we continue to let these groups spend billions of dollars to help a political party get elected, there is no way the elected wont feel obligated to lean the way of the group. even if the politician doesnt understand that, the political party, as a whole, does!
and it is those interests-getting as rich as possible and the hell with anyone and everything else- that is the root the destruction of capitalism.
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KingoBad
966 posts
Oct 15, 2011
5:58 PM
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Well, no doubt there is a lack of character and ethics on all levels.
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Danny
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Andrew
1441 posts
Oct 16, 2011
7:04 AM
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In theory, afaik, we are not participatory democracies, we are representative democracies, so to that extent perhaps there is some mob rule about at the moment, but I'm not really a political theorist, just interested in economics. Ancient Athens was a participatory democracy (but even then only in theory); we are simply too big for that.
20 years ago Will Hutton, the Guardian's economist, calculated that if Britain wanted to use its manufacturing industry to balance its books, then a mere 2% increase per annum would do it by the year 2000. But if we wanted to do the same thing with our financial services industry, then the London Stock Exchange would have to take over the entire business of the Frankfurt, Tokyo and New York Stock exchanges overnight!
I'm 100% in agreement with what Adam says (and I've been saying it for 20 years): old-fashioned political theories were about old-fashioned capitalists. And where they don't exist (i.e. they invest abroad in bricks and mortar factories, or on the virtual markets of the internet) old-fashioned political theories fall down.
Britain's capitalists have long been going abroad (James Dyson being one example), but Germany stuck with manufacturing at home. What's happening now? Germany is raking in untold billions by exporting its products to China.
And the rest of us watch our incompetent politicians taking whatever they can from whatever they haven't totally destroyed for us.
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Andrew.
P.S. An ex Tory chancellor (Norman Lamont?) recently complained that the Euro bail-out was the world's biggest Ponzi scheme. This seems doubly ironic to me - apart from the fact that all the big literal Ponzi schemes have been set up by banking friends of his, I think we can see that the whole financial sector is run on pretty much the same principles.
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Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2011 7:14 AM
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Aussiesucker
933 posts
Oct 16, 2011
10:36 PM
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What is happening on Wall St with the protests on greed is very heartening and good to see that the message is now spreading around the world. Enough is enough. I for one am a supporter of free enterprise, capitalism & democratic processes. But, the system seriously needs fixing. It seems that it is broken everywhere and as an Aussie I can confirm it is the same here. Fair & just reward for effort is essential but allowing ourselves to be ripped off is no longer on. A person who invents, discovers, adds value, saves lives, improves society & provides work for others must truly be rewarded. Sometimes it is difficult to put a value as to real worth as often such people do not do what they do simply because of reward. On the other hand CEO’s of listed company’s, what is their true value? Or more so what do they really contribute? A Bank CEO is nothing more than a glorified clerk who has brown nosed their way up the ladder. They are paid to mind our money and use it wisely. Not a tough ask. What do they add to society? They normally preside over reductions in workforce to balance (cook) the books! They get overpaid by a factor of what? Surely these individuals real worth is only a mere fraction of what we pay our Prime Minister? But they take up to 20 times the Prime Ministers salary. What do they really do that puts their price at up to 20 times that of our PM and 100 or more times that of an average worker? Nothing! All take – all greed. And the system that supports them like the fund managers who endorse and approve the outlandish obscene salaries & bonuses through their control of our shareholder votes, and the company boards also carefully selected and voted in by the fund managers, all done in order to ratchet up their own salaries. Free market? No it’s market manipulation because of obscene unbridled greed and a lack of simple controls. It’s the Gordon Geckos of the world hiding under the titles of CEO’s that need weeding out. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being super rich but it must be as a result of something real.
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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