I was at an open jam this past weekend...which by the way was awsome. there was hand full of harp players there.all of them very good by the way. I'm a member of the house band so I know all of the songs. My obervation (and I've seen this before) was that my self and one other harp player had a slower rhythm. Let me make this alittle clearer. usually when I do fills or riffs at the end of a verse I'll hold the note and add alittle vibrato or tremolo for a nice effect, these guys would play the entire scale up and down going as fast as they could to try and get it all in before the verse starts again, ....now I know everybody is different in their styles and playing techniques,but most the time it just did not match the song, and the songs we play aren't fast persay we play lots of Paul Delay, Rick Esterin, Mike May etc. but I was wondering if this is a big deal out there in the real world, because of the fact that I don't get to many jams in the big city...(I live waaaaay out in the country where god lost his keys) so I don't have alot to compare to. BUT I do listen to the pros. and they seem to be alittle slower paced with their rhythms. right now Kim Wilson is one of my favorite players today and his style is very smooth and enjoyable. I can kick it up pretty fast when the need arises. but to me holding a note or a series of two or three notes over say a 4-bar break adds more tension to the song. when I get to play my solos I'll play alittle more aggressivly but not entirely at a fast pace. I've never really thought that players like John Popper could play slower?? I like Johns abilitys truly take talent to do what he does but I just don't find it sooothing to the ears. it's probably just me getting older and grumpier? are the newer players playing more aggressively to the older songs? just an observation
I think there is a point in the learning curve where you start being able to do really fast stuff. It doesn't always fit but it's fun to play, and more importantly, it's earlier on the learning curve than learning sometimes less is more. I'm trying to get over that hump myself (well, I'm trying to get over both those humps. I can play some stuff really fast, but only the stuff I've played over and over.)
I think it really depends on the song though. I love fast stuff on songs where it fits.
I like both. Im generally blown away by some of Adam's, Jason's, or Howard's fast lines. None of them are newer players either. I don't think it's all that easy if you're trying to use notes that sound well instead of just sheets of random fast notes. I do think however that any player who can play fast 16th note lines can also hold a single note over multiple measures if they so chose to.
Whatever matches the song, I think being able to do both & mixing them up where appropriate in songs is optimum. I've actually been trying to learn to pick up the pace from some of Adam's & Jason's instructional videos (though, Jason's aren't that clear to me). Whether or not you can enjoy crazy fast hard bop-like lines is subjective. Maybe it's not soothing but maybe the song or current emotion doesn't call for soothing. I like the different dynamics.
But, of the couple dozen harmonica players I met in PA I don't think more then one of them is capable of & does fast lines. That would be Emile who makes me jealous when I hear him on stage, haha.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Steven Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
This is sort of a favorite topic of mine. It all has to do with TIME. If you're playing with good TIME it really doesn't matter if you play fast or slow. In fact, i think a good player does both depending on what fits at the moment and is right for the music.
i get SO TIRED of the harp gurus who pooh-pooh speed. Speed has its place. When i listen to You Tube vids of some of these well known traditional players, so many of them either can't or won't crank up to sax speed when the rest of their band is smoking. They just continue to play in a laid back tempo which, when the band is really rocking hard, seems a little lame to me. sort of like they can't keep up with the groove being created by the guitar, so they just diddle along.
Listen to Butterfield. He could turn on blazing sped WHEN IT FIT THE MUSIC. He'd punctuate with lightening fast runs from time to time--but not all the time.
Now, most harp players at jams who play fast lose meter and are not capable of playing at fast tempo with disciplined note selection, consistent time and meter and maintaining clean separation between notes with any necessary bends executed at tempo and in the right order. They just speed up and usually get sloppy. The trick is NOT to SPEED UP when you play fast, but to stay in meter while playing more notes per measure. Of course this means you are playing faster but you should play faster by subdividing meter, not by speeding up if that makes sense. it all has to do with the consistency with which you are able to place each specific note in relation to the beat.
So, do you play fast or slow? you should do both depending on the music you you are playing and what fits. it's not an either/or thing. You don't want to play slow all the time and you don't want to play fast all the time.
The other day someone posted a David Barrett interview of Steve Guyger where SG was condemning speed. SG is a great player, but I considered his observations about speed to be a load of BS. Jerry Portnoy propagates the same BS. You know, I've never heard a player who criticizes speed play a harp at sax speed. On the other hand, I've never heard a harp player who could play a harp at sax speed with proper meter and separation between notes criticize playing fast. Speed is as speed does and it would be a mistake to play fast all the time. But playing slow all the time is not inherently better. However, NOTE CHOICE is important at any tempo, and there are certainly times when fewer notes are better. It all depends on what fits the music being played and if the player has GOOD TIME AND METER. Anyway, that's my take on it, FWIW.
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2011 3:40 PM
Being a traditional harper, I've had plenty of gripe sessions about speed, but it was mostly when the guy playing fast didn't make any musical sense. Sometimes it was about just not liking the guy's style. For example, I don't like Popper's style (I'm not attacking his ability), but I like Jason Ricci's fast style.
For my tastes, Jason's playing makes more sense and sounds more intentional.
One of things that's frustrating about playing fast is that it takes alot of practice, and if I struggle for practice time I often can't play what it's in my head.
To me it's more of a question of balance. How to use whatever your style in an artful way. I think this solo is good example of balance. Ok Ryan get jealous LOL
P.S. The harmonica was not overdubed and was played live with the Rhythm section in the studio using a scratch vocal.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2011 4:12 PM
Diggs, I hate you with the intensity of the white hot heat from a thousand suns. Regards, Me ---------- www.reverbnation.com/thejoeleebushbluesgroup www.joeleebushshow.com
Hey joelee lucky you don't live in Philly cause you know what other harmonica player lives here. LOL ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
@Diggs: Great stuff. Jerry Portnoy and Steve Guyger may not approve, but I think this is a wonderful piece of sophisticated blues harp playing. And, you know, it's also DANCEABLE!
Great job Digg's nice and clean, good seperation between notes, very tasteful and yes very danceable. I remember when I was just starting I would play fast all the time..over everything and every body..(what an idiot I was then)... but I improved to the point of being really fast, back then Popper was just coming on the scene, and I thought I had to be that fast to be good, but I felt that I had no feeling no soul in my playing, many years later now I see a maturity in my playing. don't get me wrong I do enjoy kickin' the sh&t out of a good fast country two step or a hard driving blues song but now it seems I can project better emotion in my playing by taking it a little slower. I'm trying to get faster on my chrom. right now but it aint happening...yet.
I have another thought about speed, FWIW. Most of the well known players who are so negative about fast temp playing are players who use quite a bit of chording. If one is going to play harp at sax speed one is going to be playing primarily single notes and will phrase differently than a player who is using chords. Listen to Diggs, for example.
i think the sort of playing in Diggs' recording sounds so much more sophisticated than chord heavy harp playing. Part of this is because the the chords available on the harp are limited and relatively primitive, so one can play more musically sophisticated lines by not relying on chords--part of this is the more sax-like or horn-like tempo and phrasing one can achieve using mostly single notes. of course the very traditional style players don't play this way, which is fine. i just get SO TIRED of listening to them whine and find fault with players who do. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Diggs' playing lacks feeling or that he is playing too many notes.
I agree, " I wouldn't dream of suggesting Digg's playing lacks feeling or that he is playing too many notes". I very much like the way his sample sounds it's very classy and tasteful with a certain amount of sophistication, he shows excellent control on his single notes does not over play; to me it's perfectly done.If I could play that well all the time I would be ecstatic. not saying even the guys playing the other day sounded bad or out of tempo just a different type of style, one that I had found my self doing and just felt I could do better. I think it takes much more control to sustain a single note for a couple of bars than to jump all around the harp trying to find what your looking for...I like Jason's style he has spent alot of time working on his style of playing and it shows. I met Jason at a harp clinic in San Diego about 5 years ago and I was completely blown away buy the way he plays and have been a fan of him ever since.I think it's very important to be able to play both ways fast or slow, chords or single notes,so long as you play to the tempo, maintain good phrasing, and keep the notes clear.
"Whatever matches the song, I think being able to do both & mixing them up where appropriate in songs is optimum." This is the key-if the rest of the band is more comfortable doing slow to medium tempo songs,what are the harp players options? It would sound ridiculous for the band to be playing a slow or medium tempo song,and have the harp player wailing away midnlessly in the background. I lead my band,call the tempo and key-my band follows me-"Messin' With the Kid" is about he fastest we get. Seperation of notes is also critical-this is where guys like Steve Guyger and Jerry Portnoy come in. I subscribe to this theory as well. You play every note like it really matters-this is what your audience hears. Jazz is a bit different-but the space between the notes is still present-just less noticable. You may disagree with Steve and Jerry-but as close freinds,I will continue to listen to every word,take it to heart,and fully utilize the tools they have provided.
playing fast, slow, loud, amped, or acoustic, is easy. Anybody can do it. It is just a matter of what turns you on. Dylan's harp turns him on but it turns most serious harp players off. I dig it because it fits his being but it hurts my ears when I hear imitators.
Most people secretly put down their own playing because they continually compare it to others playing. Take joy in the sound you make. Don't ruin it with self criticisim. Let you sound unfold naturally. It will come if you learn to stop putting yourself down. Do what inspires you and pay no attention to what the crowd does. I would rather live on my own island and have my sound than live in a civilization with no sound of my own. I have lived on an island most of my musical life and it is just fine :-) Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
That might be the coolest post I ever read on this forum, @waltertore! I think I'll print it out and hang it up in my woodshed right next to the tuning charts. . . ----------
It is all relevant to the groove. When playing upbeat rock music, I play way differently than when I play funk or blues.
Rock seems to beg for less space and more notes than a lot of music. I think a lot of pop music sounds good with flashes and space.
IMO, you are more likely to hear a band play aggressively or more in your face than when the blues greats did their thing. I think a lot of soloing ends up following the direction of the band.
Play with a great blues drummer and bassist and you'd sound like a fool playing really fast. Take Sugar Blue for example...he plays really fast, but his band plays stuff to support that. When he plays a more traditional blues, he is still all over the harp, but there is more space and less fast runs.
Popper is totally hit or miss. On a lot of recorded stuff, he can really groove with a slower more spacious tune. Check out the Duskray Trubadors. I've read and heard him say several times that his role in BT is to take frantic solos. His work with DT is much more laid back.
My favorite players can do both - push the beat and then sit behind it. A lot of players are good at one of those things. Very few can do both, IMO. James Cotton is a good example of someone who can do that. He may not play a lot of speed patterns, but he can play fast and aggressive as well as really bluesy and soulful stuff.
FWIW, I find it damn difficult to learn a new tune that isn't dance friendly. I used to not care, but even one year of being in a cover band and I feel like there are some grooves, while maybe cool to play, make no sense to do live.
Playing cool solos over danceable and engaging music is as close to a sure-fire route to success as possible. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I just downloaded/listened to John Popper on the new Johnny Winter CD. Parts of the playing are gorgeous, and his bluesy playing is way awesome, BUT he plays a ton of notes and leaves no space.
You can hear where the space should be. Generally, the note choice and riffs are great, but he is playing on top of everything.
@Waltertore! great post made me think! i am my own worse critic i always think the worse when i get no comments on my vids but why should i be bothered! when i play live to people they always want more so cant be that bad.
fast is cool if you have mastered all the scales and all else that goes with harmony , rhythm,and the lick language of the style you`re playing.slow blues with a player rippin` double time ,kicks a$$.all the great jazz horn players put BLUES on the outskirts of eternal now,pedal to the medle. and Jason R. sounds like a guitar shredder.the harp has come to an open book it`s not a toy as it was thought of years ago.and i still like as Albert King did a whole lot of soul with a few notes . fast may pass you by,but slow will let you know... so listen !
Personally speaking. I much prefer a player that takes their time and uses phrasing and tone to punctuate the music. I like to hear space. That applies to all instruments and not just harmonica. I don't like players that are over busy.
I don't listen to a lot of Popper, but from what i have listened to, I agree with HarpNinja. Also, on some of the Popper stuff I've heard it sounds more like he's playing PATTERNS rather than notes. But, if the patterns fit the music, i guess that's fine. He certainly has an identifiable individual style and approach.
His two main patterns work in pretty much any of the 6 most typical positions associated with harmonica, lol. I guess that is true of anything based off of the first position major scale.
His middle of the harp to high end playing can really fit over a number of chords. Sugar Blues uses a sorta similar anchor note approach in his 3rd position playing, anyways. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
fingers: I post my songs for the sake of putting them out there. If people dig them that sure is nice but I would never put up songs and ask opinions about the song. Why? Because I do my songs from my heart. they are true to the moment. When people tell me I need to do this or that, I thank them but explain that my music just comes out and to put ideas and controls on it makes it as intersting to me as digging ditches for a living.
Most people try to sound like someone else, or the general trend. They form a club like thing and compliment each other. I ran into this in most all music cities I lived in. Be different and you will have a lonesome road when it comes to getting pats on the back from the majority of most musicians. that is cool because man does it feel good to let your soul come out pure and clean. My music has attracted many of the greats of our music world. that means a lot to me. they just want to be a part of it, not change it. The big names that have been in my band or jammed with me dug spontobeat. Heck I had the IBC winner and a grammy winner on bass for this session. No one got paid. It was just for the sake of playing. I will take these occasional sessions anyday. A few months ago I got an email from charlie musselwhite. He said he still plays my album I gave to him back around 85. Stuff like that means a lot to me. the average cut and paste musician will generally ignore stuff that is different than what they do and usually sees themselves, mostly in secret, inferior to the ones they are trying to be like. A great musician genuinely digs their sound. Being famous has nothing to do with either cause I have seen both kinds get famous and not be famous. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@HarpNinja:"His middle of the harp to high end playing can really fit over a number of chords. Sugar Blues uses a sorta similar anchor note approach in his 3rd position playing, anyways."
Yeah. Once i kinda sorta figured out what these guys were doing, I started to work the middle and high end a lot more. But I don't understand what you mean by "anchor note approach." Please elaborate.
