Greyowlphotoart
851 posts
Oct 11, 2011
10:34 AM
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Well I thought I was starting to get to grips with harp positions.......I was wrong!!!
I recently posted a video of the song Michelle by The Beatles. I played over a backing track and this is in the same key as videos of the original song which I am told is in F Minor.
I checked out the notes on guitar (it's quicker for me at the moment than working out the notes played on harp.)
Playing my Bb harp over this song started with C 4 draw and went on to include flat notes Eb, Db, Bb Ab.
So I looked on the circle of fifths and thought aha (Fm is the relative minor chord of Ab)and has those very notes so I must be in 11th position...... apparently not!!
I am told I am in 2nd position (which kinda figures really cos I play pretty well everything in 2nd.) because F (doesn't matter if we're talking major or minor here by all accounts) is the 5th note in the key of Bb.
At this point I would like to say it's all crystal clear .....It isn't. I see key F with one flat in it (what's happened to all the others?)
If anyone could offer a simple answer that doesn't look like a quadratic equation I'd be most grateful and I'll even agree to post less videos!!
If this seems like a minor issue it's major to me:)
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WinslowYerxa
82 posts
Oct 11, 2011
10:46 AM
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Major and minor have no bearing on position. You've fallen into the trap of adding the consideration of relative major and relative minor, which doesn't apply (Fm = relative minor of Ab, and Ab is 11th position on a Bb harp).
Positions are very simple and depend on one thing and one thing only: The relationship of the key of the music played to the key of the harmonica it's played on.
So if you're playing in the key of F on a Bb harp, you're in second position. Doesn't matter how many flats are in the key signature or whether the scale is major or minor or some kind of mode or even an artificial scale. If the tonal center is F, then you're in F and that's all that matters.
For readers who don't know about the circle of fifths, positions are numbered starting with the key of the harmonica. Play music that's in Bb on a Bb harp and you're in first position. Count 5 notes up the scale and you come to F. PLay in F on that Bb harp and you're in second position. Count up another 5 notes to C and you're in third position.
The circle of fifths carries this sequence all the way around all 12 notes in the chromatic scale, cycling all the way back to your starting note. This is often graphically represented as a wheel or circle, such as the one found here:
Note that the chart tells you how many sharps or flats are used to create a major scale in that key. This is helpful in some circumstances, but it's the sort of detail that doesn't count in figuring positions, which is partly what's causing confusion here.
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2011 2:20 PM
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Michael Rubin
281 posts
Oct 11, 2011
10:49 AM
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There are many F scales.
F major F G A Bb C D E F
F natural minor aka F aeolian scale aka F relative minor scale F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F (the same notes as Ab minor)
F harmonic minor F G Ab Bb C Db E F
And many more. I use 6 minor scales on a regular basis.
All of these scales have different notes in them, that is what makes them sound different from one another. But they all have one thing in common. They all share the root note F.
When playing a diatonic harmonica, the position are numbered based on the amount of fifths of the root note from the name of the harp.
On a Bb harmonica, the root note Bb is zero fifths from the name of the harp, Bb. We call that first position.
On a Bb harmonica, the root note F is one fifth up from the name of the harp, Bb. We call that second position.
It does not matter which F scale you use.
Even though Ab major and F natural minor have the same notes, they are not the same scale. The difference is the root note and the distance of half steps between all the other scale tones and that root notes. Although some people have perfect pitch and hear notes by name, most people hear the distances between the melody note and the key's root note. In the key of F, the note F is zero notes from the root. In the key of Ab, the note F is 6 notes from the root. That is a big difference.
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timeistight
158 posts
Oct 11, 2011
10:58 AM
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F major is one flat; F minor is four flats (same as Ab major):
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WinslowYerxa
83 posts
Oct 11, 2011
11:26 AM
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Yeah, I avoided using that one because it shows the relative minor keys on the inner circle, and that's the source of Grey Owl's confusion.
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hvyj
1847 posts
Oct 11, 2011
11:29 AM
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F minor can be played on an Ab harp in fourth position or a Db harp in fifth position.
F Dorian minor (major 6th) can be played on an Eb harp in third position.
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timeistight
159 posts
Oct 11, 2011
12:01 PM
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Michelle is kid of a brain twister. Even though it behaves like F minor in the middle, it starts and ends on an F major chord.
Here's an analysis:
http://www.recmusicbeatles.com/public/files/awp/m4.html
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2011 12:05 PM
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Greyowlphotoart
852 posts
Oct 11, 2011
12:07 PM
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@WinslowYerxa and Michael Rubin. I get it now thanks to your detailed and easy to understand replies.
It was partly the circle of fifths that led me down the wrong path and my confusion in respect of the minor.
I have the diagram already but thanks timeistight.
@hyvi I have tried out the Ab and Db harps and a quick runthrough on the Ab seems to offer a good alternative to 2nd position. Only one +4OB required and generally easier. A little trickier on the last bar with the lower draw bends but no harder than the more frequent 2nd position low draw bends.
Thanks for the additional info timeistight, I'll check that out.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2011 12:08 PM
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nacoran
4727 posts
Oct 11, 2011
2:25 PM
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I embedified your Circle for you. I couldn't resist. It would be sort of nice to have one with some buttons so you could add and subtract information. I use the one on Wikipedia but on a couple occasions I've whited out some of the information to put the emphasis on what was relative to the point I was making.
A circle with buttons... that might even be within my limited programming skills. I'll have to think about that a bit.
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Diggsblues
1022 posts
Oct 11, 2011
2:58 PM
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This is one of those tunes that uses a parallel
major and minor system. It seems the easiest way to
describe it. This as opposed to a relative major/minor
like autumn leaves.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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hvyj
1849 posts
Oct 11, 2011
3:33 PM
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i don't know how to play the tune but if it's parallel major/minor, my first impulse would be to use 2 harps: Bb and Ab.
It's not particularly awkward to use 2 harps, and it can be very practical for certain material.
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WinslowYerxa
84 posts
Oct 11, 2011
4:19 PM
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The standard term is tonic major and minor.F major is the tonic major of F minor. And F minor is the tonic minor of F major.
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WinslowYerxa
85 posts
Oct 11, 2011
4:21 PM
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A circle with buttons might be cool.
Also a way to choose three parameters: Key of harp, key of tune and position. Choose two and let the program figure out the third.
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sorin
330 posts
Oct 11, 2011
10:12 PM
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There you have it Greyowl. The world of harmonica is a bit of a mess . Like Winslow said it , positions in harp world has nothing to do with any kind of scales, notes intervals , sharps of flats , it's just that you use a Bb harp for a song that is in the key of F , you play in 2nd position , no matter that is minor major , myxolidian etc . Just think about it when you play blues in the key of F , you grab the Bb harp , you actually use the minor pentatonic scale , which is the minor scale without the second and flat 6 notes, depending on the chord , you gonna throw here and there 3 draw or 5 blow which are part of the major scale , that doesnt mean you change positions.
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Greyowlphotoart
854 posts
Oct 12, 2011
12:13 AM
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Cheers Sorin, and thanks for putting me right in my original post. All this additional information has helped me to develop a greater understanding.
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boris_plotnikov
651 posts
Oct 12, 2011
1:32 AM
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I found it's easier to start Michele on Ab harp from 5 blow (4th position). It seems it's the same position Howard Levy played it.
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Greyowlphotoart
856 posts
Oct 12, 2011
6:10 AM
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Yes it appears that 4th position on the Ab harp is easiest.
As I am so used to 2nd position, I automatically seem go that position when I want to play a melody.
This is the start of the song on 3 harps.
Bb -4-4,+4ob-3*-3**-4-3**-3**+3-3*-4*-3*-3**+3-3*-3** (later includes a 6OB and more 4OB's)
Ab +5+5-5+4-3+5-3-3-3**+4+4ob+4-3-3**+4-3 (just this one overblow +4OB in the 1st line of the verses)
Db -3-3+4-2-2*-3-2*-2*+2-2-3*-2-2*+2-2-2* (later includes a 6ob and 1OB)
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Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2011 6:11 AM
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tmf714
832 posts
Oct 12, 2011
7:14 AM
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Howard uses a G harp for Michelle.
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2011 7:14 AM
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boris_plotnikov
653 posts
Oct 12, 2011
8:43 AM
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tmf714
In the key of E minor
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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