harpdude61
1089 posts
Oct 07, 2011
11:26 AM
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Besides the stock comb, I have GM harps with acrylic and DymondWood combs. Both these combs and harps play great, but I notice the comb is slightly thinner.
Is their an advantage to this? Must be or why make them thinner. Since the harps are custom, a comparison would not be fair.
I think with my style of play and embrouchure that I might like to try a comb a little thicker than the stock GM plastic.
Is it out there? Anyone else tried this?
Ever wonder if thicker or thinner combs would be better based on how high or low the key of the harp? Whether you overbend or not? Whether you tongue block or not? Based on your style or embrouchure?
Maybe a single comb that grows or shrinks as you go up the harp?
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chromaticblues
1028 posts
Oct 07, 2011
11:55 AM
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Thats odd Harpdude. Most custom combs are thicker. I have some and I'm pretty sure mine are thicker (not by much). The GM has big coverplates so I don't think you want to go much bigger than stock, but I'm with youin thinking they should atleast not be thinner.
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florida-trader
57 posts
Oct 07, 2011
12:07 PM
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Duane:
I can't speak about the DymondWood but I can answer your question with regard to acrylic. The stock comb on a GM is 1/4 inch. Acrylic does not com in 1/4 in thickness. The closest thickness they make/sell is listed as .236" and that is really only a made up number. The manufacture's tolerance limits on a .236" sheet of acrylic is from .200" to .247". Usually what you get is around .225" - .230". The reason for the variation in thickness is that since the acrylic sheets are made via an extruded process, what with cooling and stretching etc, they have no way to make them in a uniform thickness. In fact you could easily see the upper and lower tolerance limits in a single 4' X 8' sheet of acrylic.
As far as how does this affect the tone of the harp - get ready for the debate. Logic tells us that there is a point at which the comb would be too thin to allow enough room for the reeds to vibrate. So at some point a comb that is too thin would definitely affect the tone and/or playability. But here's a mystery for you. The stock comb on a Golden Melody is .250", however the stock comb on the Marine Band is around .235". I say "around" because I have taken apart lats of Marine Bands and measured the combs. I have stock Marine Bands combs that are .210" thick and I have a couple that are .240" thick. Regardless, they are ALL less than the stock thickness of a Golden Melody, a Special 20 or the current version of the MS harps. (the earlier MS harps have thinner combs a la the MB). The only reason I mention all this is because if a .235" comb is good enough for a MB (by design)should that not be good enough for a Golden Melody? I don't know. I'm just asking.
I have been making and selling acrylic combs on eBay for about a year and the feedback I have received from my customers about the acrylic has been very positive. I resist the temptation to make claims about how my combs will improve your tone, etc. because there are way too many variables to be able to make a blanket statement such as that. I can only say that after a year of offering acrylic combs and several hundred sold, the reports are favorable.
In answer to your final question, there are some older harps that are thicker on the bottom to allow more room for the longer reeds and thinner on the top. I have an old Up To Date that was a precurser to the Marine Band and the comb on that harp is thinner in the front and is thicker at the back. It is also a "discrete comb" meaning that although it is a diatonic with only 20 reeds, each reed slot is separated into an upper and lower chamber. This harp is about 100 years old. Interestingly enough, the Discrete Comb was reinvented by none other than our own Windslow Yerxa as mentioned here: http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/DiscreteComb.html
I think that it is safe to say that in the past 100 years or so, there have been lots of different designs tested.
Hope this has helped.
Tom
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Todd Parrott
743 posts
Oct 07, 2011
12:20 PM
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harpdude61,
This isn't the first time this topic has came up in the forum...
I've always said that the acrylic combs are thinner, because, like Tom said, that's how they come from the supplier. A thinner comb does improve the response a little bit, and sounds really good on lower keys in my opinion. I have acrylics on my GM's in G, A and Bb.
Chris Reynolds has also made combs even thinner by special request in the past (though I don't believe he is taking any special requests at this time) and says that these are really responsive and brassy sounding.
Chris Michalek used to say, as does Tom, that stock Golden Melody combs are slightly thicker. This is correct. Chris used to say this contributed to the tone of the Golden Melody, which is debatable I suppose. I have a gemstone comb that is even thicker than the stock GM comb, and I notice a tiny bit of difference in the tone, and very little difference in the responsiveness - not enough to really matter. However, the thicker you get the comb, the more you will affect the responsiveness, so that's not an option for me.
Again, most of the tonal differences will come from the covers -vs- the comb, and even more so from the player's mouth, and sound chamber created with their hands.
The acrylic combs are really nice in my opinion, and are much easier to clean than wood - and are cheap. Dymondwood is nice because you can wash it at the sink with dish soap and it won't swell or affect the comb.
Last Edited by on Oct 07, 2011 12:21 PM
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oldwailer
1741 posts
Oct 07, 2011
1:00 PM
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I know that Marine Band harp combs vary a little--almost always just a couple of thousandths shy of 1/4". Chris taught me to make combs that are slightly thicker--right around .27". I experimented around and even made a comb once that was wedge shaped--thin at the mouthpiece and fatter at the back--it's an F harp and plays very well--it was made with a casting process that I still haven't perfected.
After messing about with it, I have come back to the slightly thicker comb--I just find it more playable and I like the sound a little better.
I love the cast acrylic combs that I have made--and Florida Trader is right--the material they sell is not 1/4" thick--it's short of that--it also isn't flat enough to suit me--so after flat sanding, I ended up with a comb that was way thinner than stock. They still play very well--but I missed the very slight tonal difference of the thicker ones--and my embouchure seems to work better with the thicker ones.
I recently found a source of good acrylic that is 3/8" thick--I can flat-sand as much as I want and still end up with a comb that is to Buddha specs in thickness. I don't think there are many colors available in this thickness, but I'm trying them out in my own harps--so far I'm very happy with them--but that's just me--the tonal differences (if any) are so small they'll always be open to disagreement. . .
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nacoran
4712 posts
Oct 07, 2011
2:12 PM
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The web ate my post!
Hrumph. Oh well. It was a good one too, all about the physics of why a smaller chamber might be more responsive based on the need to change the pressure rapidly to get the reed to respond.
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hvyj
1836 posts
Oct 07, 2011
2:16 PM
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Thinner combs produce quicker response. I think there might be slightly less depth of tone with thinner combs and slightly greater depth of tone with thicker combs.
Chris Reynolds will make thicker combs to your spec. He does rounded tines or flush tines and there is a BIG difference in the feel and playability of each so you need to pay attention to that if you order from Chris. His dymondwood combs are really nice.
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harpdude61
1091 posts
Oct 07, 2011
4:23 PM
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Great responses guys!
I'm more interested in playability than tone. I play big open throat and mouth and wonder if pulling more volume/mass of air would work better for me. I would love to try a 3/16,1/4, and 5/16 inches comb thicknesses on the same harp set-up to see what happened.
In my mind different player types might be suited for thicker or thinner combs. I really wonder on the high harps if you could pull the air ... would you have more control and room to bend the notes?...but I'm just speculating.
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hvyj
1837 posts
Oct 07, 2011
4:37 PM
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Yes. Thick combs work well on high keys. I think it's easier to hit the low end bends on high key harps with thicker combs. When Chris was alive he made combs for me of different thicknesses, so I've fooled around with swapping different combs on different key harps quite a bit.
Thin combs are definitely quicker, but, in general, I like the low end bend precision and response better with thicker combs. When I say "thicker" i mean standard size. I don't think any of the combs I have are much thicker than the standard GM combs. I don't play MBs so I have no opinion about them.
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harpdude61
1092 posts
Oct 07, 2011
4:56 PM
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You answered my question hvyj...thanks man.
I want to try a .28 to .30 inches thickness on my high F GM. Who knows? ..may love it...may not be able to play it...
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walterharp
718 posts
Oct 07, 2011
8:58 PM
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ok, always the skeptic with the physics in mind
lets say the chamber of an individual pair of harmonica reeds is 1/20th of the size of your mouth (maybe a bit more if you are not opening up and getting deeper tone with a bigger resonant chamber, maybe way less if you put your throat and lungs into the calculation).
if you change the size of the chamber by 1/10th that would only be 2% of the total volume.. ok not quite as far fetched as claiming you can play faster on a dynamic than a CM mic.. but still seems like the chamber size should not matter much, not nearly as much as the size of the hole vs the physics of your mouth sealing the hole.. not nearly as much as the 10% difference of sealing with a not-flat comb
there is no arguing that on low harps if the low reeds hit a cover plate, then a narrow comb will kill you because the reed needs to swing both ways (which you can now admit to in the armed services :-)
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hvyj
1838 posts
Oct 08, 2011
12:09 AM
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"there is no arguing that on low harps if the low reeds hit a cover plate, then a narrow comb will kill you "
Nonsense. The reed plate and therefore the reed is the same distance from the cover plate no matter if the comb is thick or thin.
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boris_plotnikov
645 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:07 AM
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On low harps slightly thinner combs have such better response that I was shocked. I didn't think it will be so big differences. I recommend to everyone to try thinner combs.
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harpdude61
1094 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:19 AM
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"I want to try a .28 to .30 inches thickness on my high F GM. Who knows? ..may love it...may not be able to play it..."
Anyone on here have the skills to make me this comb at a resonable price...for the sake of science....
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walterharp
719 posts
Oct 08, 2011
8:11 AM
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what i meant is that if the distance between the reed plate and the cover is such that the reed swings far enough to hit the cover, then a comb with a distance such that the other reed plate is closer across the comb than the cover plate is, the reed will run into the reed plate across the comb.. does that make sense? of course that assumes the sound you hear when playing a low low harp and the reeds hit something is the reeds hitting the cover plate, but they could well be hitting the opposite reed plate, i had just assumed the former. sorry was not more specific in my comment
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hvyj
1839 posts
Oct 08, 2011
12:49 PM
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I think the problem with low/large reeds hitting the covers occurs with low draw reeds as they move away from the reed plate towards the cover plate. This phenomenon is no better or worse with a thin comb. I don't play any tenor (low) harps, so i have no opinion on how one of those would perform with a thin comb.
Last Edited by on Oct 08, 2011 1:25 PM
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