HarpNinja
1729 posts
Oct 02, 2011
7:15 PM
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Do you go straight to the board or to a DI? I know I asked about DI's earlier, but this is a different scenario...I am assuming you can just plug right into a mixer as it is line level, but are their benefits to going to an XLR?
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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Joe_L
1495 posts
Oct 02, 2011
7:24 PM
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The times that I've used a line out on my amps, it's been straight into an empty channel on the PA using a standard guitar cord.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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bharper
63 posts
Oct 02, 2011
7:36 PM
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Same as Joe_L...
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Greg Heumann
1290 posts
Oct 02, 2011
8:34 PM
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Not all PA's, particularly the bigger non-portable ones have 1/4" inputs. Also, signal over a high impedance run begins to fall off after 20' or so. If you need to run 30-40 feet or more, use a DI box and go low-Z into the PA.
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/Greg
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Filje
17 posts
Oct 03, 2011
12:56 AM
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In a live situation, i think XLR is best. Then you take full advantage of the boards preamp. To me ears XLR sounds bigger and more dynamic. A tele input can offer less bass and treble and sound a bit harder.
For acoustic guitar signals (magnetic, piezo, condenser) it is always recommended to use a DI and go to the XLR input, even if it says "plugs in to everything".
This is info is based on doing many gigs and talking with professional sound engineers.
What device are you coming out from?
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http://www.filipjers.com
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5F6H
872 posts
Oct 03, 2011
1:36 AM
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Filje, XLR or otherwise isn't so much the issue, the hi-z/instrument inputs still usually have all the features of the PAs preamp. Harpninja is talking about taking an unbalanced signal from a line out voltage divider on his amp's output transformer secondary.
If you have Hi-Z, 1/4" instrument unbalanced input on the PA then there is little advantage to using an XLR input with a line transformer/DI box. As Greg says, not all PAs have his facility these days, as unbalanced 1/4" inputs are often dropped in favour of balanced line 1/4" TRS inputs. Unbalanced cable length is affected by cable self capacitance degrading the signal, however this effect is much less dramatic over longer runs when the cable is used as an interconnect lead, instead of a mic lead. The line-out will usually be much lower impedance than a mic, 50-500ohms is typical - line outs/outputs are more often than not low(-ish) impedance to prevent the next device's input from loading the incoming signal. E.g. if your line out load was 100Kohms and you plugged it into a 10Kohm input, the input & output become a voltage divider only allowing 1/10th of the potential signal available through.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 1:37 AM
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Filje
18 posts
Oct 03, 2011
2:03 AM
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alright its a guitar amp! did not see that. the phrase "line-out" can be stamped on many devices.
I had a gig where the bassplayer connected his bass amp, using lineout to the mixer table, the telejack sounded crap, so we took it into a DI and then XLR to the table and it sounded great. I don´t remember if the tele telejack was balanced or un-balanced.
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http://www.filipjers.com
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 2:17 AM
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HawkeyeKane
232 posts
Oct 03, 2011
8:39 AM
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I just got a modified Kalamazoo 2 from Greg. Had him install the line out on it. Used it twice now since I got it, and both times I've run it through an equalized DI to the board. It's worked wonderfully.
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Hawkeye Kane
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hvyj
1817 posts
Oct 03, 2011
8:49 AM
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My SWR Baby Baby Blue bass amp has a balanced XLR line out. Sounds great every time I've used it. FWIW.
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harpdude61
1080 posts
Oct 03, 2011
8:56 AM
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Okay,,yall have me confused. I play decent harp but I am a bad singer and even worse at technical stuff. I cannot speak the language above so I'll make it simple.
I use my Ultimate 57 into a Harpgear Double Trouble...I use a 1/4 to 1/4 line out and the band leader plugs it into a box thingy (I'm sure it is either a board or a DI.
Do I need to purchase something else and/or tell him to do something different. Only thing I ever heard him say is that he puts me into a clean channel, whatever that means.
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HawkeyeKane
233 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:17 AM
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@harpdude
Yes, the little box your speak of is most likely a DI of some kind. When he says a clean channel, he's referring to the relative cleanliness of XLR as opposed to 1/4". Over long distances, 1/4" signal can become degraded due to the high-Z. If he's running the 1/4" line directly into the PA from your Double Trouble, then he's running it into a high-Z input on his mixing board.
In terms of buying something else...well...are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the sound you're getting right now?
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 9:18 AM
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MrVerylongusername
1971 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:23 AM
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@hvyj
If it's balanced xlr out, then it's a DI built into the amp.
Noone's mentioned that there are different standards for line level. Pro gear is usually rated at +4dBu and consumer gear at -10dBV. We once had to use a mixing desk that used +6dBu - never come across that before. Having linked gear working at different line levels can result in frustrating imbalances in the gain structure. Things work best if everything's matched.
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 9:25 AM
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HarpNinja
1732 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:28 AM
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I picked up a HarpGear HG2 (will have this week). I was using my VHT, but it doesn't have a lineout and I wanted the HG2 badly enough to get one for a mint.
When I sing/hum basslines into an octave pedal, the VHT buzzes/rattles. I am assuming the HG2 will do the same. That wouldn't be fun to listen to FOH, so I thought the lineout would be a cleaner sound to send to the PA.
What I ended up doing last night is getting a 1/4" to XLR adapter so that if the board didn't have a 1/4" line level (NOT INTSTRUMENT LEVEL) input, I could just use that.
I did get a DI for going from my pedals straight to a PA, though. I guess I figure that if I use a short 1/4" from the line out and connect a XLR from the PA, the length shouldn't be an issue or they would use a DI anyways.
90% of the time, I run my own sound and have the 1/4" in. I am not even 100% I'll use the line out, it all depends on the rattle/buzz and if I get it from the HG2.
Let's face it, it wasn't meant to have what is essentially a bass running through it at 6w. I think it is the cab or tubes that rattle, so the lineout might be a good solution. I have another solution that has the bass frequencies NOT going at all to the amp and just FOH, but that would require another pedal.
In hindsight, the Micro POG was better for this as I could have just sent the dry through to the HG. The POG2 doesn't have that.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 9:46 AM
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harpdude61
1082 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:30 AM
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Hawkeye....I just want to do what most while carry on the tone of the amp when not miking it. I think my 1/4 to 1/4 is 12 ft long. Is that too long?
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HawkeyeKane
234 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:44 AM
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@harpdude
Nah, 12 ft wouldnt be too degrading to the signal. You push 20 or 25 and it might break down a bit. But if you're already doing the DI, that's honestly the best way to go.
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Hawkeye Kane
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5F6H
873 posts
Oct 03, 2011
9:46 AM
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Harpdude61, 12' is fine for the interconnect from your amp's line out to DI/PA, the signal carried by the cable here is much lower impedance (probably a couple of hundred ohms at most?) than from your mic to amp & subsequently much less susceptible to losses.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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Joe_L
1496 posts
Oct 03, 2011
10:14 AM
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Mike - Don't make the assumption that the HG2 will rattle when using an octave pedal. I've used a Boss OC-2 with both octaves cranked up on my tweed Champ clone and I didn't experience any rattling, buzzing or humming. Additionally, I didn't experience any rattling, buzzing or humming running the pedal through my Double Trouble.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HarpNinja
1733 posts
Oct 03, 2011
10:26 AM
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Thanks, Joe! It only really happens when humming into the mic. It doesn't do it when just playing, kinda weird, I guess.
I figure it was probably a decent idea to spend the $10 on the adapter just incase, but I fully intend to try to mic the amp instead....unless it sounds like crap, lol.
But if you aren't getting any of that with the OC2 cranked, I should be fine. I actually have an OC2 sitting somewhere and can see if that helps.
So far, the hardest part of setting up a OMB is the bass...it seems to always cause a problem. I've tried changing settings, connections, mics, and technique, but with little luck.
That being said, straight to PA, everything sounds great! I have a Zoom Q3HD and will share this week's shows as best I can. One is with a sound man and one is with me running sound.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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hvyj
1820 posts
Oct 03, 2011
11:24 AM
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@harpdude61; Anything under 30 feet is probably okay with an unbalanced hi-z cable, but certainly no longer than that. I think the conventional wisdom is 18 feet, but in my experience you can go longer without signal degradation. But, obviously, the shorter the better.
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5F6H
874 posts
Oct 03, 2011
12:44 PM
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HYVJ you are correct, but only when considering the cable when used to connect an instrument to a hi-Z input. In Harpdude61's case he is linking the line out jack from the amp (lo-Z) to the DI/PA. "Outs" are usually lo-Z (or lower than the expected following input load) to prevent loading by the next device in the chain's input load (Boss pedals often have a 10K out, but these are expected to be plugged into an input of hundreds of thousands, or millions of ohms).
When I was younger & more obsessive, I used to use a 7' cable from mic to a delay pedal at my feet, then a 15-20ft cable from the pedal to amp. The short cable to the pedal suffered minimal losses, the long lower Z cable run from pedal to amp also suffered minimal losses when compared to switching the cables around (big, easily recogniseable difference)...it was, in the end, more convenient to use a standard length cable and a short patch cord, like most do today...even though sonically it is the "wrong" way round.
I have made up 30' Klotz cables on request, that were better performers than 10' cables from a lot of other manufacturers, cable stock itself has a noticeable impact. Rather than thinking about a specific length, go with your ears and if a cable dulls off your tone, try going shorter if you can, or replace it...you should always have a spare in any case, so it's always worth taking a punt on a different brand.
If you don't hear your cable dulling off your tone, then you don't have a problem.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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