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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
From the other side of the harp
From the other side of the harp
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Todd Parrott
705 posts
Sep 24, 2011
5:44 PM
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Had a nice time hanging out with one of my harmonica heroes today, Bill Newton. What a great player!
Today reminded me just how important it is to listen to the tone of different harmonicas from the other side of the harp, as a listener. Though I'm still convinced that most of the tone comes from the player rather than the harp, comb, etc., it was still interesting to listen to Bill play the classic Marine Band vs. the Marine Band Deluxe vs. the Crossover, etc. Harps can sound totally different when they're in your face as a player. I particularly loved the sound of his Crossover in A. There were also very noticeable differences in the Marine Band Deluxe vs. the Crossover. The Crossover was a little brighter, which would be preferable depending on the key. This type of comparison listening is much more difficult to do in noisy settings, like a SPAH convention for example.
My take is that lower key harps like G, Ab, A, or even the super low keys, sound better with more open covers, like the Marine Band style covers with vents, while higher keys like Eb, E, F, etc., are naturally screechy, and can sound too bright as a Marine Band. Full length covers can help dampen some of the shrillness of higher keys, and warm them up a bit. This is part of the reason I liked the old style Meisterklasse covers for higher keys. I also really like the sound of Special 20 covers that have been opened up, and would like to try a Marine Band with Special 20 covers soon.
Golden Melodies have a twangy quality, and are kind of a good all around compromise for me, with a nice sound, even with full-length covers on lower keys, though the Thunderbirds do sound best for the super low keys - nice and loud. I don't see any reason to warm up any low keys further, as they are already naturally warm.
Of course, this is just my take on the subject, not to be taken as the gospel truth. But it sure changes your perspective when you're the listener, as I was today.
Hopefully next time I can bring along my camera and capture some video of Bill's playing. He truly is an awesome player, with an awesome collection of harps.
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 10:06 PM
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groyster1
1430 posts
Sep 24, 2011
5:54 PM
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hello todd
I still think hohner is king of harps,sp20 are great harps but the mb deluxes in Ab,B and Db I got from you are very strong ootb harps
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Todd Parrott
706 posts
Sep 24, 2011
6:00 PM
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Marine Band Deluxes are very warm, and really do sound nice. Glad you like them as well.
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boris_plotnikov
627 posts
Sep 25, 2011
9:12 AM
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Actually differences between harp are not so huge comparing to different player's tone. But definitely I like harps without side vents. I love tight embossed harp tone over stock or slightly embossed.
I hate marine band tone, to bright and too crispy for me, especially on bends and overbends. While I like Golden Melody and Sp20 tone (the same reeds, but different coverplates). Howard Levy use marine bands with Sp20 coverplates.
I love Seydel stainless steel tone. From the first try it's not as bright as brass, while it has more prominent dynamic. Playing softly - warm muffled tone, playing loud - crisp and bright. Brass reeds sound more similar on different volumes (like brass reeds have more gain).
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Filje
7 posts
Sep 26, 2011
8:22 AM
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Interesting discussion.
I feel and think its hard and subjective to judge the sound of a harmonica. Everyone has different ears and brains and people like things different. and thats good, then we all don´t sound the same ;)
I am also of fan of closing the side vents on marine band styled harps. At the sametime a special 20 cover that is not open sounds very muffled. Something in between is good.
The Suzuki Firebreath for example can sound muddy while playing it, but if you recorded and listen back I think its sounds great.
I have noticied that a lot can be done and fixed with the right microphone and where you place it and how you work with EQ and compression. And not to mention multiband-compression!
For example, There you take down 10-12 khz, an overtone area that I dont like while playing hard - but I love that when I play soft...
Oh man, big world - world of sound !
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http://www.filipjers.com
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7LimitJI
539 posts
Sep 26, 2011
8:31 AM
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"classic Marine Band vs. the Marine Band Deluxe vs. the Crossover"
The differences here are the tunings.
The nearer you go to equal tuning,the brighter the harp sounds.
If you tune them all the same, there is little if any difference.
If you want warm and smooth try 19Limit JI
Cover plates make a big difference and I agree the open side plates are brighter sounding.
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"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
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walterharp
707 posts
Sep 26, 2011
8:53 AM
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It does reinforce the idea that it is valuable to listen to yourself play in recordings.. and what happens out front, if you are performing, is all that really matters.
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HarpNinja
1707 posts
Sep 26, 2011
8:55 AM
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Classic vs. MBD vs. Crossover
I think there is more to the change in sound. Obviously, the MB coverplates aren't wide open so that has something to do with it. However, I think the combs make a difference too...
I know that has been "disproven", but I swear I hear a difference playing pearwood vs bamboo. Granted, It'd probably be near impossible to hear from the audience, but, whether sealed or not, the pearwood combs sound softer, IMO.
Granted, the reeds/plates on all three are supposed to be identical, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they aren't.
Assuming that is true, and that the width of the reed slots is the same on all three, the only differences are the tuning, covers, screws, and combs.
If you open your MB covers, like I do, then you essentially are down to three variables. If it is just a matter of tuning, then notes tuned the same, say 1, 4, 7, and 10 blow should sound the same on all three models (I guess Crossovers are tuned to 443 and the MB's 442, so that could make a difference). I would argue they will still sound brighter/more present on the Crossover (yes, I've tried this). Now you're down to two variables.
MBD's and Crossovers are interchangeable, so the screws vs. nails must not have a huge impact on tone as I feel MB's and MBD's sound a lot alike.
Now we are down to one variable - the comb. I know it has been dismissed, but I swear I can feel/hear a difference from something like pearwood and then the harder combs (bamboo, dymonwood, corian, etc.)
While I totally agree that you can compensate for just about anything with modding, on stock MB's (assuming gaps are similar), I can hear a difference in tone. From the stage, probably no way.
While going against popular belief, I swear the Crossovers and Thunderbirds have something unique about them. They just don't sound/feel/respond the same way as the MBD or MB Classic.
One possible explanation for this, that is 100% pure speculation on my behalf, is that many of the MB's and MBD's I've come across were manufactured before the Crossovers and TBirds. However, I've had 6 different keys of the new MB's with sealed combs and still think they don't sound the same.
At any rate, the Crossover is my favorite OOTB harp. I don't have a full set as I use all three kinds of MB's in my gig set. I also have a full set of GM harps that are, in general, warmer than the Crossovers but not that much different than the pearwood MB's.
The Thunderbirds are excellent harps. They are much better in tone, IMO, than the 1847s and MB Classics in similar keys. Yes, I've compared them directly.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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groyster1
1434 posts
Sep 26, 2011
9:26 AM
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I have a sp20 in G with opened backs and I prefer it to the high G I have makes a big diff in volume it does make sense not to open the covers on D E and F harps
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DanP
220 posts
Sep 26, 2011
10:33 AM
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@ boris
It's interesting that you hate the tone of the Marine Band and think it's too bright. I beg to differ. To my ears, the 1896 Marine Band has the warmest tone of any stock harmonica. Its sound is perfect for cross harp IMHO. The Hohner Marine Band is not my favorite harp to play but it's my favorite to listen to.
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kudzurunner
2707 posts
Sep 26, 2011
11:26 AM
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I've used Marine Bands for a long time, as you guys know, but I've lately started to switch between MBs and Crossovers. The Crossovers feel like custom harps to me: they're quicker, brighter, easier to OB. That brightness is a virtue in band contexts--their brightness comes in the 5K-8K area, to my ears, where you really want the harp to cut through--but in one man and duo contexts, the brightess isn't, on every song, a virtue. Stock MBs work better for me sometimes.
I use a mixture of the two types of harps on my forthcoming album and they both feel and sound good to me. I do a repeated riff that uses the 6 OB on an F harp, and I used the Crossover for that!
The advantage of the Crossover, for a dedicated longtime MB user, is that it still basically sounds like a MB, just a slightly brighter and sharper one. If you like the MB sound and mouth-feel, as I do, that's a good thing.
I can't for the life of me figure out how ANYBODY can put up with Golden Melodies. I can't get a good grip on them, the chords sound sour, and they sound tinny to me.
But that's just me. To each his own.
Oh: I've got one of Ben Bouman's Beta harps (a modified Seydel) in Bb and I really like it. It OB's easily and has a full, rich sound. You can blow hell out of it and those steel reeds just take it all without every souring. Good harp.
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2011 11:31 AM
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Matzen
329 posts
Sep 26, 2011
11:53 AM
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I love Golden Melodies, just dislike the tuning they come in! I really wish Hohner would also sell them tuned like a Marine Band (and maybe use a different comb material). I really think a lot more people would start playing them. I guess I could get around to retuning them myself tho. I also think I need to try out a Crossover one of these days. I just keep thinking that they'll be too bright for my tastes. But I guess your right in saying that the brightness would be just fine in a band setting.
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Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2011 11:54 AM
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HarpNinja
1710 posts
Sep 26, 2011
11:54 AM
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Interesting comments, Adam. I've been woodshedding a solo show - first gig is October 6 - and have decided on stock MB Classics for all my regular tuned harmonicas (I only use A, G, and Bb). I have the new ones with sealed combs. They sound the best when playing alone, IMO. The GM's have a mellow tone too, but they are ET.
For the low tuned harps, I use the new-comb Classics, but mod the cover plates...down to Low D.
I use Thunderbirds for the real low tunings.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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JInx
69 posts
Sep 26, 2011
12:02 PM
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"I can't for the life of me figure out how ANYBODY can put up with Golden Melodies. I can't get a good grip on them, the chords sound sour, and they sound tinny to me. "
Have you tried 12th position on a GM?
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kudzurunner
2708 posts
Sep 26, 2011
1:13 PM
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Not for about 25 years. Tell me a little bit about in-and-out chord rhythms in 12th postion on a GM. Have they improved in the last several decades?
:)
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harpdude61
1061 posts
Sep 26, 2011
1:21 PM
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GMs are great if you play with the harp deep in mouth. Corners on MBs and such do not feel right to me.
When I play hole 1 or 10 on an MB, each side of my mouth feels something different. Not so on a GM.
I know the tuning is different, but folks always enjoy it when i play one of those pursing chugs I learned from one of Adams early lessons.
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hvyj
1801 posts
Sep 26, 2011
1:31 PM
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I'm with Boris--I hate MBs. Don't like anything about them.
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Filje
8 posts
Sep 26, 2011
2:14 PM
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For me its really about ensemble situation. If I play with 4 fiddles, I go for a bright harp.
If I play with a soft jazz piano, its nice with a darker one.
On duo with acoustic guitar its really up to how the guitar sounds, and then I can choose how to compensate the sound picture,, if I want to "follow" or cut better.
We harmonica players are very lucky to have such a big "Menu" of instruments, I say - find what you like but also search for things you don´t like, then you will learn even more..
Looking forward to hear your new CD Adam!
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http://www.filipjers.com
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nacoran
4670 posts
Sep 26, 2011
3:17 PM
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The only Hohners I've played that didn't slice my lips up were SP20s... and Piedmonts.
I know, I know... I need to sand them down. I've got a Marine Band in E and another one in low F. They sound nice enough but I just don't end up using them much.
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Nate
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Todd Parrott
707 posts
Sep 26, 2011
6:37 PM
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I just tried a set of old style Meisterklasse covers on a D Crossover... wow! makes it sound just like a Meisterklasse. I think Joe Spiers said once that he's built Marine Bands with Meisterklasse covers for some of his customers. I can certainly see why. This was the best coverplate Hohner ever made in my opinion (though the Meisterklasse harps were not very consistent in quality). I must find someone who can clone these covers. I also tried Special 20 covers and Huang Silvertone Deluxe covers on the Crossover. Amazing how much the covers shape the tone.
I think those who are saying they hate Marine Bands, Crossovers, etc., are saying this mainly because of the brightness of their coverplates. Try a set of old Meisterklasse covers and you may find that you like them better... or at least a little bit better.
7LimitJI also makes a good point about the tuning of the Crossover vs. the Marine Band and Marine Band Deluxe, and how this affects the tone.
There once was a day when I also hated Golden Melodies... then I saw the light. :) Of course I understand why chord lovers and blues players don't like them. I've tuned some of mine with a compromised tuning myself.
No one has commented yet on Manjis... Mike? Anyone?
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harponica
3 posts
Sep 26, 2011
6:48 PM
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Yeah some harps are brighter than others.Doesn't matter the reason,the solution is as close as your amp is away.If you start out playing a G harp and adjust your amp to that frequency then go to a regular F and dont give your amp setting some bottom end it will be brighter than it should be.Its crazy to stay on one amp setting the entire gig unless your keys that you use are close you can get away with it.
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groyster1
1435 posts
Sep 26, 2011
11:22 PM
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I dont overblow but golden melodies are the easiest harps to bend the reeds are very flexible but would rather all my harps be tuned JI they sound so much better no doubt whatsoever
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boris_plotnikov
629 posts
Sep 27, 2011
1:47 AM
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Definitely MB's tone depends on coverplates. Howard Levy's MB's with Sp20 coverplates are nice. BTW when I played hohner I opened back on all Sp20 as I liked that tone much more. But I hated side vents.
Customizing very noticeably change volume and tone. Custom harps, especially low key custom harps sounds much brighter and fuller and have more prominent dynamic.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Learning To Reed
7 posts
Sep 27, 2011
3:10 AM
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Howard Levy's Marine Bands with Special 20 covers looked pretty rough when I saw them at SPAH 2010. They weren't opened in the back and were hanging over the backs of the combs, and some were crushed in. I was expecting him to have nicer looking harps, but he sure can play 'em, so I guess it doesn't matter if they look shitty, as long as they get the job done.
How do you know they are nice, Boris? Did he let you try them? How did they play?
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JInx
70 posts
Sep 27, 2011
10:00 AM
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"Not for about 25 years. Tell me a little bit about in-and-out chord rhythms in 12th postion on a GM. Have they improved in the last several decades?
:) "
That would be like using a wrench to turn a screw. Use the right tool for the job.
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LittleVillage
30 posts
Sep 27, 2011
12:51 PM
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On the Golden Melody's, I agree with the tuning as Adam stated but really love the harps on all other counts.
I sent a full set of used GM's to Joe Spiers for a cleaning, repair any tweaked reeds, carve in the Letter and white it out so i can see in the dark and retuned to a compromise tuning! Best thing i ever did! Very reasonable charge for doing so and they play fantastic. I now have a full set of back ups that i can count on and no more equal tuning issues for the blues work! I strongly suggest it to anyone looking for a reasonably priced option! T.
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2011 12:52 PM
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