I was where you are not so long ago. Tons of practice does it. Count through songs, practice being on time with jam tracks, and practice solo while keeping time and chord changes in mind.
Harper, do you do something physical...like tapping your toe or your heel? Swaying your shoulders? Rocking back and forth? The timing of body movements can be controled more easily than simply "hearing" or "feeling" it. Find the body movement with which you can best keep steady time.
Edit: Let me add that the tempo of a song may influence which body part works best for you. Maybe your heel for fast tempo; maybe rocking back and forth for slow tempo.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2011 4:59 PM
What gene said about body movement is very true. Aside from that I would add a few other things. Keeping a basic beat going is something that can be improved over time - no pun intended - with practice. But I don't think it's always quite as simple as that.
One thing that blues players have to master much more than folks who play some other styles, e.g. classical, is being able to find the beat when many of the notes they are playing are syncopated, or falling just ahead of or behind the beat; it's a very counter intuitive thing for many people to do.
Understanding how those rhythms are written down can be a great help when it comes to nailing down a passage with a tricky rhythm, but you still have to get to a point whereby you can just forget how the rhythm goes and just feel it. The only way I find that I'm able to do that is by breaking a tricky bit down, nailing the beat with my foot and then gradually bringing it up to speed. I don't find this easy by any means, but I know of no other way that my talent - or lack of it - permits me to achieve this.
I have met people who seem to have come straight out of the womb being able to play any syncopated rhythm without any effort, but I don't think they're in the majority.
There is another thing that will come into play, depending on the situation, namely: nerves. An awful lot of people who are fine when playing solo in their bedroom speed up all over the place once you put them on stage. That, too, is something that can be remedied with experience and practice. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
I find that working with a metronome helps a lot. I don't like the kind that just click--but there is one online, for free called the Wierd Metronome--it lets you set up a kind of back beat that is easier to follow than the old clicker types. You can get it at http://download.cnet.com/Weird-Metronome/3000-2133_4-10073673.html
With the metronome going, try clapping instead of playing--clap first on the beat--if you clap at just the right time, the beat on the metronome will disappear--then work with clapping on the 'and' of the count--1 And 2 and 3 and 4.
if you do this just a few minutes a day, you will see your timing improving right away. Back when I used to give lessons, I could bring back a rhythmically dead man with this method!
If you get 'Band in a Box', you can just set up a backing track and it will provide you with a drummer and a bass player--that's even better than the metronome, but it ain't free--you can just jam with it in any key you want to. . . ----------
Here is another piece of advice that i was giveng around with a metronome is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Get some Jimmy Reed records. Listen to them. Count out the beats. Move to the music even if its just tapping your feet or snapping you fingers.
Keep your harps in another room. Resist the urge to play along. Listen to the music. Feel the beat. Move to it. Its not hard.
Here is another piece of advice that I was given. Blues songs tend to move like a horse. They sometimes run fast, they sometimes walk slow but they always walk in time. If you move to the music, you can almost see it.
One last theory. Many of the great black artists honed their timing while working in factories or mills where there were repetitive audio patterns generated by machinery. Finding repetitive patterns around you can help. Count to it.
I like to use a metronome when recording. There is one I use a free download from NCH called Tempo Perfect. I use this with an in earphone ie 1/2 an ipod earphone plugged into the speaker outlet on a laptop.
Another really good metronome which is free online is called '8 notes free interactive metronome'. Here you can select beats from a simple click to drum beats in pop, swing samba etc plus the ability to compose own beats. This is a video of Ghost Riders in the Sky that I did using the 8 notes pop beat at ca 110bpm.
When I played drums many years ago, I developed a very good meter by playing along to my favorite records, all of which used click-tracks when recording, so their time was perfect. With practice, you get good at feeling the timing so you can do it without a click-track/metronome and keep very good time.
I swapped a couple months of harmonica lessons for a couple of months of drum lessons with someone. I still can't do much more than play a few basic drum riffs, but it helped my harmonica rhythm quite a bit.
Also, if you don't know basic rhythm theory, learn a little bit. Knowing how time signatures work, the difference between quarter notes and dotted quarter notes... even if you don't get to the point where you can sight read, just knowing the words for things helps your recognize the difference.
-There was a anthropological study done. Different cultures, obviously, have different words for different colors, but some have more words for colors than others. One group, for instance, didn't have words to differentiate between red and pink. They'd show people flash cards with different colors on them and ask them to remember the order the different colors came up. When they asked them what shade of red it was, they had know idea. If you showed them the red card and the pink card next to each other they could tell them apart, but they didn't have a word to help them remember or notice.
Just having the words for all the different types of rhythms helps you recognize and copy them.
I would never have taken an interest in the harmonica in the least, if I didnt have it before I started... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork "Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
re: the drum lesson....is a good cross-training technique, nacoran.
A pal of mine is teaching me song structure, proper dynamics, and certain sections to watch out for, from a drummers perspective. Very cool. Very similar.
Boy, I am terrible, too...my hyper nature is hurting me so much, I can't believe it.
It does work. My time is improving....slowly.
I've been doing it once a week..for 8 months.
The lesson for me, is to cross train with other forms of rhythm so you can be ready for anything..
It's also good to sway your feet back and forth, when laying down on your back.
The 'swaying foot method' is straight from the bodies clock, the heart.
For gigging the best advice I read was from Kim Wilson saying the groove was in your hips. Rick Estrin basically says the same too. Since then swaying them has really helped me. Plus it look good too! ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
I am ok with admitting I may be wrong, but I have never fully agreed with the metronome, foot tapping etc. I do understand that someone may have no timing at all (or rather doesn't understand it) and for that a device like a metronome is great. But I never believed that "everyone" had to use a metronome or learn to tap their foot.
When I was learning guitar I was friends with another guitar player who at one time was a drummer. He insisted I had to tap my foot or I could not learn to play properly or develop timing. I never did and disagreed. I pointed to players onstage...they aren't tapping, they are sometimes running around (in the case of rock players). I said that I knew where the beat was and that was enough. Tapping and a metronome were for those who had problems with timing. I insisted that he was big on tapping because he was once a drummer.
The tapping would actually throw me off. I can dance, he can't. I feel the beat. I can hear it. The first time I picked up a harp to blues music I knew where the changes were in 12 bar blues. I had no clue what all that meant but I knew where to change and was able to follow it. It seems obvious...the beat is clear.
I'm not saying my timing is perfect...I don't know. But if it isn't I don't believe it is because of not using a metronome. If I sat and played the song and actively focused on perfect timing that would be (IMO) a better exercise than a device as staccato as a metronome. I tend to follow the beat of the music. I hear the count in my head, I feel and hear the beat in the music and I feel the rhythm. I'm sure it works that way for many others. ---------- Tommy
Yeah, this is the best way to do it. BUT, if one relies on feel alone, there is a tendency to speed up as you get into a hard rocking tune because of the excitement that is generated. A metronome helps one learn to keep the beat steady even when driving hard at fast tempo.
Now, if a player has really good time and meter one can VARY where the note is placed on the beat and push the beat by getting out in front of it a little but without speeding up. Some players call this "getting on top of the beat." But this only works if the drummer and bass player remain steady while you do it. Or the note can be placed directly on the beat or even a little behind the beat as is common in blues.
For a good example of a performer who carefully places each note in relation to the beat, listen to Dianna Krall sing.
There's a conga player who comes to certain jams i sometimes go to. He's got very good time, but he's a pain in the ass to play with because on a hard driving tune, he invariably gets excited and starts to speed up which destroys the groove. And if there's an inexperienced drummer on the kit when the conga player does this, he'll speed up along with the conga player and then you lose "one" because "one" is no longer where it is supposed to be. So, "feeling the beat" is fine, so long as you are able to use discipline and not get carried away when the material starts to rock hard.
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2011 10:43 AM
I thought my timing was much better than it was until I started playing with other people. :)
I also discovered I write a lot of lyrics that end up with lines starting on the up beat instead of right on the beat, and that I don't always end up in 4/4 or 3/3.
"I am ok with admitting I may be wrong, but I have never fully agreed with the metronome, foot tapping etc. I do understand that someone may have no timing at all (or rather doesn't understand it) and for that a device like a metronome is great. But I never believed that "everyone" had to use a metronome or learn to tap their foot."
Perhaps you are right. However, you can prove it to yourself if you can do this:
Take a tune with phrasing that is primarily off the beat. The example that flew out of my head, which everyone here is likely to know, is Area Code 615's Stone Fox Chase, better known in the UK as the theme to The Old Grey Whistle Test.
Now, each half-bar phrase - at least at the beginning - starts one 1/16 note (or semiquaver) ahead of the beat. If you think you're timing is bang on, tap your foot, or use a metronome, or any other steady and regular pulse you may prefer, and play each note of each of those opening phrases precisely one 16th ahead of the beat. Your foot tap should follow by one 16th and be bang on the beat.
If you can do that without any work, your timing is far superior to mine. This is the stuff that BBQBob is talking about in his fourth paragraph above.
The reason I even challenged your view is because when I used to busk, that tune I mentioned is one I used to play, and it really showed up how flawed my sense of timing was: I couldn't keep a beat with my foot and play the tune properly.
Being able to keep a beat with your foot is - at the very least - one way you can prove to yourself that you've really got the groove nailed down. Also, in a solo act - e.g. busking in a subway - it's going to earn you a good few more pennies 'cos the syncopation is that more obvious and, hence, interesting. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
While I'm playing, I think I'm totally in the groove and have no need for a metronome. When I listen back ... well, it suffices to say I then realize I would better off with a metronome. So for the past two years, I now wear headphones plugged into a metronome for all the videos I upload (youtube.com/ToddGates).
talk about keeping good time,here's a suggestion. As an example of masterful timing... Give a listen to Robben Fords bro, Mark.... on Work Song/ Tribute To Paul B. cd. If you have it... Youtube doesn't have it....atleast, I haven't seen it lately. It may be there now. The live version is not the same as the tribute cd...it's good. Without the long intro and flowery embellishing solo's. He's definitely a Professor (PHD), or even a Master, eh? Mark Fords timing is near perfect... He does such a magnificent job holding the beat. And, toward the crescendo lead up to the ending, it almost appears he is speeding up..but we all know it ain't the case. It is an awesome song. One of my favorites, and an all time greatest harp version, of the Cannon Ball Aderly, and brother Nat, classic I have ever heard. My recent drum lessons have helped. I'm a note for note player at heart. For me, it helps to memorize songs I resonate with. It is more about learning the language Masters are using. And the ONLY way is to learn their licks and everything. And the hardest part for most, I'm finding is keeping good time. It is THE most important part.
Wow! I just read BBQBob's post and I feel so much better about myself--I always thought there was just something really wrong with me, since I still frequently work with a click track or back-up drums and I'm always trying to get my groove in better--it seemed to me that, after 50 odd years of playing music I should have developed a kind of inborn sense of rhythm. Well--here I am--still working at it and trying to get better at it. . .
Me also oldwailer. Reading BBQ Bobs post puts me at ease. I always use a metronome in practice. But I'm practicing a lot of fiddle tunes, bluegrass & Irish, and without a metronome it would be impossible to build speed and accuracy. Even slow tunes sometimes are more difficult ie if timing is not spot on it is more obvious in slow tunes. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
BarbequeBob nailed it. If you have to learn timing, the metronome and tools are great. And too many musicians don't have good timing (I was once in a band where a lead guitar player got pissed at me, the drummer, for not following HIM.... When I told him it didn't work that way, and the bass player agreed, he blew up. "the band follows me!" he screamed. After all, he was the LEAD guitar player. And yet, his time was all over the map.
I mentioned the click tracks/metronomes as a drummer. If you're a drummer that can't keep time, you're not a drummer. And if you're playing an instrument that can't follow a drummer, you're in trouble.
I agree with Bob in that once you learn time and have a good grip of it, it's still something you need to keep sharp. The body and mind move in ways that may not stay true to time when given an opportunity to drift.
One of my favorite examples of playing very freely and perhaps not having a click track, or failing to be aware of it, is Tommy Lee's drumming on the Motley Crue album "Too Fast For Love". May not be many people's cup of tea here, but when you hear a recording or a live performance with a click track on the drummmer, you'll know right away when you don't hear one, using Motley Crue's album as a shining example. The rest of their albums adhere to the beat.
To reference Tommy the Hat's comment, I agree that not everyone needs to tap their foot if they already know and stick to timing. As long as you can hear the drums and count to 4 (or if you're playing w/ Neil Peart, up to 12) much like Adam has noted in his lessons about 12 bar blues, you learn to hear and feel it and know where it is. Run around, bang your head, do whatever, but know where your downbeats and off-beats are, and do not lead your drummer, but follow them. ;)
That's funny, Blackbird! A guitar guy thinking the drummer should follow him--when everybody knows you should always follow the bass player! ;-) ----------
I think some people have perfect timing, some have trained.
Actually I still think that general perfect timing is from genes or early childhood, while everyone have trained timing. I have some completely beginner students who can follow metronome from the first lesson. And some students who play for years and still regularly loose beat, although they regularly practice with metronome. Also I know some beginner drummers who can play very simple but really groovy with perfect tempo, while other pro drummers who can play very interesting very cool, but without metronome they always slightly change tempo.
From one side I listened to Howard Levy for 3 days (jams, gigs, private lesson). Sometimes he could play unpleasant note, slightly out of tune, skip stuck reed note but he never lost beat.
From the other side listening to live recordings I noticed that Carlos Del Junco and Jason Ricci can slightly (very slightly, not noticeable to most listeners) loose beat, especially in the end of long phrase.
I think that Levy have perfect timing, while Ricci and Carlos have trained timing.
My timing is trained. It was not perfect from the very beginning. Bunch of work with metronome (I know some cool excercises!), grooves, bands, drummers make it ok but I still sometimes have rhytmic fails, I hate when I hear it on recording, but sometimes it occurs. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I had to work my goddamned butt off learning time. First to be on top of the beat, and then later to learn how to play behind it for blues and the vast majority of black music (and it varies in many different degress of how far behind, including reggae which much further behind the beat than blues is) and then ahead of the beat for a lot of the rock oriented stuff.
More often than not, the metronome is gonna putting out the correct real time, which is ON TOP of the beat and in order to learn ahead or behind, you have to take the metronome and switch it to click on the 2 and the $, which is the back beat, and where you tend to hear the snare drum hitting. If you tap CONSISTENTLY before the click, at the EXACT SAME TIME every time you do it, you're ahead of the beat, and it it's after the click, you're behind the beat, and neither of these means your time is lousy unless it's never consistent and it's all over the place, and when that happens, your time is totally crap and need TONS of woodshedding to get it right.
If you're gonna do rhyhmic stuff, especially by yourself, if your time is even the slightest bit off, everything you play is gonna sound HORRIBLE and you make yourself sound like a crappy musician in a NY minute.
I've got these so ingrained that even when I do a solo, not only do I HEAR when somebody's screwed up the time, I can also FEEL it as well and when somebody messes the time up, they will get the look of grim death from me in a hurry. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@BBQBob: FWIW, some players use the term "on top of the beat" to mean playing AHEAD of the beat, and use the term "on the beat" to mean what you are calling "on top of the beat." But I know what you mean. A rose by any other name....
Jimmy Johnson is the shit! He's one of the most soulful singers and guitar players around. He is one of the best. In my opinion, he's in the same league as Otis Rush and Buddy Guy, but he's never received the same degree of recognition as those guys. The Blues pour out of every pore of his body.
Interesting discussion. I find I can play in time when I'm playing with others, but have difficulty keeping good time playing by myself. But I've survived for over 35 years playing harp in various bands, so something must be working.
Here's why I jumped in, something I've always thought about:
To play behind the beat, or ahead of the beat, at least one player in the band has to be playing ON the beat, am I right? If every member of the band decided to play "behind the beat", they'd all be playing together, i.e. back to playing on the beat. Same principle applies if everybody decided to play ahead of the beat to the exact same degree.
The interesting rhythmic tension must come from some playing exactly ON the beat, and others playing off the beat in one way or another.
Another question I've wondered about: Does it matter who's keeping metronome time in the band, and who's "playing" with the time? E.g. drummer and bass player in lock step, rhythm guitarist "playing" with the time (playing slightly ahead or behind the beat), as opposed to, e.g., bass player and rhythm guitarist in lock step, drummer "playing" with the time. Hope you get what I'm trying to say.
It depends, but usually bass player and some drum parts (hihat or ride cymbal) have to play on the beat. While soloist in jazz have to play behind the beat. In rock playing ahead the beat is very common, but not a rule.
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I remember I was doing some work ushering kids around at a Yamaha school band comp one day - A whole bunch of local primary and High School Orchestras competeing against each other, After a school from any particular year would do their 3 pieces, they would then be ushered into a workshop.
I was overhearing something in one of these workshops that taught me a very valuable lesson........
CONDUCTOR: "Who's responsibility is it to keep time in a band?"
Anyway it's allowable for soloist to vary playing ahead/behind/on the beat, while it usually not allowable for musicians who comp. However sometimes if soloist tend to ruin whole thing musicians who comp can bother him to do this by using opposite trend. E.g. if sax player played too far ahead the beat drummer can play some triplet brake and starts to play slightly behind the beat. Actually it's better to avoid such situations, but if it occurs it can hold music together. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Hey Ray you seem to have fallen behind the beat as of late!? I recall you had some serious work going on? Hope it's going well.....:~} Back on topic, I incorporate my foot tapping into some light percussion to fill out the sound......... ---------- Rubes's band DadsinSpace-MySpace
Right now I am trying to focus on really listening to every click of the metronome as I play.
I found I would just kind of stick the metronome on, put my head down and play and then come up again a couple of bars hoping to still be in the right place. Sometime I would be, sometimes (mostly) not.
It's been quite a revelation to me to realise that I actually have to listen to the beat in order to stay in time with it.
You should always be listening to the sounds you are making, and that means their speed, as well as their expressivity and intonation and phrasing. So, to an extent you can train yourself to be 'a metronome', but don't expect (or desire) to become a literal metronome! ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
As far as one has to be playing right on or on top of the beat, the answer to that in a band situation is NO but EVERYONE absolutely HAS to have their time on the money. It's easy to confuse and believe ahead or behind the beat means bad time, and that is NOT TRUE AT ALL, because you have to bet hitting in the same spot all the time and when that's happening, the time is right and you're grooving, and if you're all over the place and not hitting that time consistently EVERY SINGLE TIME, then your time is awful and everything you play will sound crappy and not only do you make yourself look bad, you make everyone else around you look much worse.
Jazz saxman Jackie McLean said in an interview he usually could tell who was the white musician and who was the black musician or influenced by either one by the way the played in reference to the beat and said the white guys tend to be more ahead of the beat and black musicians more behind the beat and usually that's been the truth in my experience. There are whites who play behind the beat and usually because they've REALLY done their homework and also being around musicians who play that way.
In open jams, the time of many of the jammers is often horrible, to be nice about it, and hanging around with them too long can get bad habits very quickly ingrained and something you DON'T want to happen. If you were as lucky as I was, being surrounded by really good musicians who knew their s**t COLD, they'd get on your butt everytime you screwed up and made better musicians out of you.
In real blues bands (especially black blues bands) EVERYONE is playing behind the beat, especially the rhythm section but there are occasional different delineations, where, in one tune, the drummer may be hitting the bass drum right on top of the beat and the snare behind it, or the drums are way behind the beat and the bass just slightly behind the beat, or the guitar player is dead on top and the band is way behind or even the guitar a tad ahead, but the main thing with that is you DO NOT OVERPLAY and EVERYONE'S time has to be on the money and it CANNOT drift for a nanosecond or everything falls apart.
In some genres, like Latin music, especially Afro-Cuban stuff, you may hear the percussion section with some on top of the beat, some behind, some ahead, but it works because neither is too far apart, everyone's time is on the money and NOBODY OVERPLAYS. People who overplay often have bad time.
If you see a guitar player in a jam who can't/won't play rhythm, 9 times out of 10, their time usually sucks from my experience, even in pro situations as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
"If you see a guitar player in a jam who can't/won't play rhythm, 9 times out of 10, their time usually sucks"
I have always hated "lead guitarists" who don't have a sense of rhythm. At work someone asked how they could become a lead guitarist, and I said, be a rhythm guitarist for 5 years first, that's what Hendrix did. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
