Yep, I know that its a reflection of poor technique, and that if I didn't use unnecessary force they'd last a lot longer, but having just cracked a reed on a very well played two year old C manji, I wondered how often this happens to other forum members.
Incidentally, I've got Lee oskars that have been hammered for about five years that are fine.
When I played hohners I blew out 1 reed in two years but almost every three gigs I retuned one or two. Now I play seydel with stainless steel reeds and I didn't replace and retune any reed for three years. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
i have one draw on 1 manji that flatted after maybe a year of gigging. at the time i was with a damn loud band. even with the bassman cranked it was hard to believe anyone in the audience could hear the harp. back in the dark ages it was not uncommon to kill a sp20 in a gig or 2 or 3. same thing, band way loud, couldn't hear myself, tried to get louder at the harp. this does NOT WORK. about 10-12 years ago i became more enlightened. if the 40 watt amp won't push it out, the band is just too loud, period. i can either stand on stage faking like i'm doing something, stand there looking stupid, or go sit down. this last has led to leaving a band on the spot after one too many conversations about excessive volume. after all is said and done i'm the one who is buying harps to work with. this means i either respect what a harp is made to do and stay within its limitations, or i get to mess with trying to bring a reed back or buy another harp. i've let go the notion that there is or ever will be an indestructible harp. for what the harp is intended, it must have some inherent weaknesses. reeds must bend and flex sometimes. but it must be only to within the tolerance of the materials that make up a harp. that was the long answer. the short one is, usually over a year on a given harp. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
It's probably because I don't gig & only recently have been trying to ramp up to going to open mics a few times a month but I still have and play the second harmonica I ever got (going on 3 years). Though, this one has been self modified (gapping, maybe embossing, open cover plates). I still have the first harmonica I ever got but I don't play it anymore but it would play fine.
It kinda boggles my mind that nearly every time I go to a harmonica event there's a guy selling harmonicas. It's not like we need new ones as frequent as we need new toothbrushes, haha.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Steven Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
when I first bought marine band 1896s and blues harps over 30 years ago,my harps did not last very long as the wood combs swelled and always got an accumulation of dead skin which probably gummed up the reeds-I just recently had my first lee oskar harp go bad and the reed replacement did not work out-I have many harps now so I am able to spread out my playing of them-that plus better technique is probably why my harps last so much longer
My harps, whether customs or not, seem to last forever before blowing out a reed, and when I do blow out a reed it's usually the 4 blow. 99% of them are Hohners, and some have lasted for several years, even with bending overblows and overdraws.
I don't buy into the the idea that Seydel's stainless steel reeds are the savior of the harmonica world. Sure, stainless steel is a harder material and probably will take abuse longer than brass, but I just don't care for them. The 1847 Silvers I've tried just didn't work for me, especially for overblows. For the price, I expected them to be much better out of the box. I do like some of the brass-reed models in the Seydel line.
The longest lasting harps without a doubt are Lee Oskars (Tombos). I also had an old pre-MS Cross Harp that outlasted everything. The bottom of the plate said, "Hohner long-life" and this surely was true. I still have the plates somewhere.
I could be wrong, but I think part of the reason my harps seem to last longer now than they used to is because I've adjusted my playing style to not play as hard. Having a harp set-up well requires less breath pressure, and perhaps this is what gives me the longer reed life.
@Boris - You are one of my favorite players, and I have a ton of respect for you and your playing, however, if you had to retune your brass-reed Hohner harps as often as every 3 gigs, I just can't understand that. I've never experienced that in almost 22 years, even when I was a hard player. Not saying that what you are claiming is untrue, I just can't understand why you would have to retune that often. Do you find this to be the case with the brass-reed Seydel models as well?
Bottom line for me is not how long a harp lasts, but how it sounds. If I wanted long-life only, I would play Lee Oskars, but they just don't work for what I do.
Jbone and Todd pretty much said it all. Harmonicas just don't last if you play with loud guitar players! Thats a though one. Almost every time I get a chance to play its with loud guitar players and I have a case full of NOS Marine Bands that will not be easy to replace! I don't even play well when I play loud. For most harps players thats just something you have to deal with! AS far as SS reeds lasting longer. I don't know? Its very possible. I'm not saying Borris is wrong. He's probably right! Agian I have go back to what Jbone said about playing within the limitations of the materials. Are brass reeds more limited than SS reeds. I believe that it may be the other way around, but that is why the SS reeds would last longer. Again I don't know! It just makes sense with SS being a harder metal. I believe the key to long happy harp life is learning to set the reeds for maximum performance then you won't have to play so hard. It improves your technique also haveing the reeds set right. Which intern means your not abusing your harps. Of course go to an open mic have a couple beers and none of this means shit!
The bottom line is that bad playing technique will ruin ANY harp of any manufacturer regardless of reed materials, quality control or anything else very quickly no matter what, and the average player, ESPECIALLY if they're teaching themselves, often plays FAR TOO HARD on their harps all the time, and when they bend notes, the force often gets 10 times harder because, from they way they taught themselves, they always FORCE to happen, so their bends are horribly out of tune, every note even not bent is at least 20-30 cents flatter than it should be, plus they put so much stress on the reed and the blowout is from the microscopic cracks, better known among customizers as stress fractures is caused by bad playing technique, and once this happens, the reed is toast and if you can retune it maybe once, you're lucky, but usually that thing is history and bad playing technique is, in no uncertain terms, is just DAMAGING your harps, and that is the truth.
Bad playing technique like that I tend to call, and though it's gonna be very politcally incorrect in its description, unfortunately describes that technique to a T, and that's the caveman macho idiocy method. Why call it that?? Think of some old movies or some episodes of the 3 Stooges with caveman scenes and the classic thing of the caveman beating a cavewoman over the freaking head real hard with a club to force her to submit to being his cavelady, and obviously, that's a real dumb thing to do, plus if you do that today, you get your butt thrown in jail for abuse and assault, and this is basically what bad playing technique is doing.
Stainless steel, from the ones I have hold up well, but a few players who played them too hard also blew them out in less than 2 months, and with SS reeds, if you'be blown them out in less than 2 years, it is VERY OBVIOUS you are playing way too damned hard.
The pre-WWII MB's used a soft, but strong brass referred to as bell metal brass, but this hasn't been made since prior to World War II.
Bottom line is if you've got bad technique, NO harpo is going to last and it's too easy to take the lame and easy way out and blame the harp because the real cause is ALWAYS the player. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 10:37 AM
What poor technique contributes to reed failure? ---------- Robert Hale Learn Harmonica via Webcam Low Rates, High Results DUKEofWAIL.com DUKEofWAIL YouTube
@duke: I think the overall consensus is that too much breath force contributes to reed failure. I don't doubt this to be true, but I think that we should remember that harmonicas were never originally designed to bend notes or overblow, and that any piece of metal which is repeatedly bent backwards and forwards at high speed over long periods of time will eventually fail. Also, for any number of reasons it can be desirable to play loud, and this will mean 'too much' breath force is used. ---------- Lucky Lester
Todd Thanks for your respects! I think of reeds going out of tune not because of metal fatigue but because of dirt and oxidation (usually I retuned reeds and it lasts for years again). If I use harp a lot for one gig (e.g. Bb when I played with jazz band) after 3-4 gigs one or two octaves started to beat. Maybe it depends on saliva pH. I have only one brass Seydel and I retuned two reeds inside it, while no problems with stainless steel.
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
The two techniques that contribute the most to redds failing quickly are using too much breath force (and 98% of beginning players and 50-75% of intermediate players are CLEARLY guilty of this, especially if they're teaching themselves how to play) and bending past the floor of the bend, which also means even more breath force is being used and the stress level becomes heavily magnified.
Does actual defects make things happen? No doubt, but bad playing techniques makes things FAR worse than any manufacturing defects, real or imagined, and that's the truth.
I absolutely agree with Boris here on dirt and oxidation because that is also a contributing factor plus also tons of dried on saliva and dead skin in addition is also a factor. Cleaning the reed plates (make damned sure you remove them from the comb before doing so) and the reeds using some isoporopyl alcohol (preferably 91% by volume), which you can get anywhere quite cheaply and using a a high quality lint free paper towel on a regular basis (do NOT get cheapie stuff because they leave tons of lint, something you don't need to breathe in) and more often than not, you won't need to retune at all. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
One of the things that used to be hard on my harps was playing straight acoustic (totally unamplified) blues with a bunch of string players. Again, that was an issue of having to play with too much force. We almost never play acoustic gigs anymore; those were mostly bonfire parties, or picnics, etc.
Our band plays every week, whether it's a gig or practice, and my OOB SP-20s are durable enough. I buy maybe 2 stock harps/yr.
I dunno... I play Lee Oskar, and they seem to last forever. (10 years) There is some de-tuning drift over time, of course, but rarely a total reed failure (break).
Can anyone direct me to the science and testing of these beliefs for reed failure?
I have 6 suzuki's mr350's, there all flat and hard to use now, i'll stick to sp20's from now, my 350's lasted about 18 months and being a beginner i understand i probably had something to do with the "flatness", but i aint riskin any more money on them , i have some sp20's that still play well imho.
I play my harps 2-5 hours a day and get at least a year out of them. they are stock marine bands, delta frosts, and big rivers. When I started out I could blow out a harp a night easily. I am totally self taught and just did what I felt. I am glad I went that route because it developed lots of stuff I use today. I still will hit a harp hard when it tells me. Most people tell their instruments what to do. I have never gotten into that. Since I started I let it tell me and songs just keep coming out.
Over the years this has evolved to learning how to funnel a lot of air without blowing out/flattening reeds. My first experience with this technique was when I was helping sonny terry get around. He made an imense amount of sound without wrecking harps. I had been playing for 4-5 year at that point and it was the right time for me to hear this. I believe the universe provides everything we wish for if it is a true wish from the heart. IMO this internet thing to never blow a harp hard is a misleading thing to a beginner. It will lock you into things and keep you away from discovering things that only can come via no rules. Sonny would hit notes hard at times. Remember most all the videos/recordings of the old blues guys caught them at the end or prime of their lives. I heard from many of them firsthand how wild they were in their youth- kind of the punk rockers of their day. Let your spirit guide you or you will end up just another of the millions of proficient generic sounding player. To limit oneself by intentionally not blowing a note hard is just that. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
LOL. Every time this topic comes up in harp forums it devolves into a pissin' match: "My harps last longer than yours! You're playing wrong!" The usual suspects always gotta impress us with their "superior" technique.
Bull! The point of playing harp is the music, not the instrument. If a player gets his tone by hitting reeds hard that is his business. Or, if a player likes to preserve his harps by babying them, that is up to him too.
Pro players blow out harps, too. If you want to make it a contest of whose harps last longest, you win. Good for you. But if you want to be a pro, you are going to blow out harps from time to time.
To answer the OP question: How long harps last varies with your playing style. You are not an inferior player if yours die faster than some others. Learn to repair your harps and they will last pretty much forever.
@bharper I get good mileage on harps but dont think I baby them-the best thing about the few customs I have is that they definitely take less wind to get the desired effect-but for those who attack their harps so be it-I will never tell anybody how to be a successful player
I blew out first stainless steel reed! Two years of playing, favorite 1847 silver in C, 9 blow. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
if you are a dynamic player ,you will play from a whisper to a honk ,like cracking a whip on that harp.those harps are meant to be played.but no shouting in some ones face. i have some MB`s 25 yrs. old in their cardboard boxes and i wish i saved some of those 40 yrs.old mb`s long gone...
Last Edited by on Sep 13, 2011 3:49 PM
The reason stainless steel is supposed to last longer isn't specifically because steel is stronger than brass, or rather it's because of a specific way it's stronger, not how it's stronger, say as an I-beam.
All metals, if you bend them back and forth far enough enough times will slowly start to worry and eventually snap. For most metals it doesn't matter how far they move, they still worry eventually, but a couple metals, steel and titanium in particular, have a range of bending, a few degrees either direction, that doesn't cause them to worry at all. As long as they are only asked to bend in that range they will last forever, or until they corrode or whatever. They won't fail from metal fatigue though.
So, why don't we have titanium reeds? Well, titanium is a pain in the but to work with. It will chew through whatever you are using to cut it faster than you chew through it. Cut it with lasers? Well, titanium has got another trick up it's sleeve. The temperature it melts at is pretty close to the temperature it burns at, so when you cut it with a laser it has a nasty habit of catching on fire unless you cut it inside a sealed containment area filled with non-flammable gasses.
I'd love to see what people could do with some modern materials if money was no issue and you had a mad scientist available to help. Memory metals (usually some sort of alloy of nickel and titanium) would be cool, or liquid metals (metals in a glass state).
Maybe it would be worth soaking your harps in water?
Check out how much longer the liquid metal ball bounces. It might just be like adding reverb right into the harp! ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
