gene
869 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:30 PM
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I have boney fingers. I can squeaze my fingers together tightly and still see gaps. My face is also as boney as Skeletor's. (Hatchet-faced, as well.) Does this mean the best cupping I'll ever achieve will be mediocre?
The best seal I've been able to get is by holding the harp in my left hand the regular way. My right forearm is almost vertical and my left thumb rests on the heel of my right hand near the wrist. My right fingers then wrap over the top of my left pinky and ring fingers. If I try to use the Two-thumbs-up method, there is no seal at the bottom.
If I use a mic, I hold the mic between my right pinky and heel of the same hand. Sealing the harp on my face: Forget it.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 9:43 PM
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Greg Heumann
1224 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:43 PM
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I'll bet you can do it. It takes practice. It sounds so damn simple but by cupping has been improving for YEARS. And I know I can still improve.
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/Greg
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gene
870 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:46 PM
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The way it's been going, if I cup any better than what I normally do, I'll end up with very tired and cramped hands.
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Greg Heumann
1228 posts
Aug 19, 2011
10:29 PM
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No - it takes practice. Just like your mouth and neck muscles hurt when you learn to bend - but you get stronger and more precise and that goes away. You might have to develop muscles that aren't strong yet. You do not need a super tight grasp. You need to hold your fingers close together.
Or, you could go on a diet. Pancakes, eggs and bacon, plenty of butter and syrup for breakfast. A few good burgers for lunch and super-size those fries. No diet coke for you - get The Real Thing. For dinner, a 32oz porterhouse medium rare, baked potato with plenty of butter and sour cream, (screw the salad - completely worthless source of calories,) chocolate cake and a lot of beer. A Pizza before bedtime. That might help with the boniness..... ;)
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/Greg
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Joe_L
1428 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:25 PM
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You can do it, you just need to practice it. It's not brain surgery or rocket science.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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gene
871 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:28 PM
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LOL
I try that diet from time to time, especially around the big holidays. Every bit of it goes around my waste...Nowhere else.
I understand what you're saying. I have to believe that practice can overcome handicaps, but I tell ya...Those gaps between my fingers...
It ain't rocket surgery, either. ;)
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 11:29 PM
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Joe_L
1430 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:40 PM
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Gene - Big John Wrencher had amazing tone. He was missing an arm.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Kingley
1604 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:56 PM
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It just takes practice. You need to be patient and just keep practicing. You'll get it eventually. The more you practice the better it will get.
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Ant138
1069 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:59 PM
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I was nearly put off with bullet mics when i first started playing amplified, my hands hurt like hell and i couldn't get a decent seal. Then, every time i went back to it i got a little better at holding them.
Just keep practicing and it will come:o)
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
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gene
873 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:41 AM
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Thanks for the tip, Joe. I'll have an arm removed. :D
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didjcripey
131 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:35 AM
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Try practicing for a week or so using a large drinking glass instead of your mic. When you go back to the mic, it will seem easy to hold. Also, what type of mic are you using? Some of the smaller electrovoice shells are easier to get a good seal on, and some of the astatic shells like the T3 are are lighter and smaller than the green bullets. My favorite is a chopped Astatic 200, even though its a large diameter, the shape makes it very comfortable.
Don't worry too much about the gaps in your hand; if I hold my hand flat and close the fingers, there is a gap. Curl the fingers as if they are holding a mic and you should see the gaps mostly disappear.
There's no doubt that big, fat hands are an advantage, I reckon part of big walters tone was because of his big hands, but I reckon you can get it sorted, especially if you get the right shell.
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Lucky Lester
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thorvaldsen76
122 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:41 AM
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It was the same for me as I've cut off my right thumb. I thought that I would never be able to cup a bullet mic but I just forced myself to use it and now I have no problem with it!
Hitch-hiking on the other hand,is something that I cannot do anymore;)
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Tommy the Hat
221 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:55 AM
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I'm new to this and notice early on that cupping is going to take some work. I can't seem to get the right tone or variation. As for your skinny face and gaps and any solutions, have you tried Spackle? lol
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Tommy
Bronx Mojo
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HarmonicaMick
293 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:08 PM
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@ gene: I'm glad you brought this up, as I was beginning to think I was the only person on earth who's had to - and still has to - work like hell at this.
First off, to quote Greg: "You do not need a super tight grasp." He is absolutely right on the money. I know I've banged on once or twice about how harp methods can sometimes be misleading, and this, in my view, is the No. 1 way where most of them fail. Only Gindick's book, amongst those that I've read, points out - and I'm paraphrasing here - "You will never get a good seal if you hold the harp too tightly. Perhaps other books I've read mentioned that, but not in the relevant chapter.
Think about the way your hands are put together. When you clasp them rigidly in any given way and push them together, you help to preserve the gaps that you described between your fingers; you make your fingers like rods of metal, and the flesh may not be able to fill the gaps between them. I too have skinny-ish fingers, and I also get those gaps between each joint where the flesh doesn't meet. If you relax your hands a little, you may find that your fingers may come together a little more easily and seal those gaps where the air escapes.
Also, bearing in mind that the left hand part of the seal is being formed by the middle finger, ring finger and pinky, think about how they are coming together. If you hold them out in a straight line - as so many books describe - it may be impossible to eliminate those gaps.
I get round this in the same way that a lot of players do: I stack the ring finger partially on top of the middle finger, and the pinky partially on top of the ringer finger. I don't stick them all out in a straight line as I find it impossible to get a seal that way.
As for the pinky, are you resting it in the crease in the right hand where the fingers meet the palm? That does the trick for me.
Still, talk is easy. Like others have said, it takes practice. Some days I can wah wah with the best, whereas on other days I just feel like chucking all my harps out the window. I know a lot of you won't agree, but I think that getting a good, consistent seal takes more work than achieving a rudimentary use of overblows.
EDIT: My comments were just meant to be about acoustic playing.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 1:14 PM
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mercedesrules
102 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:23 PM
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.....I am still a beginner but after about 9 mo. I was blowing low notes on a harp that didn't have side vents and all of a sudden I heard notes coming out the front of the harp's high holes! ;)
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hvyj
1690 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:37 PM
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FWIW, I think it's harder to get a good cup with a good seal using the 2 thumbs up method.
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HarmonicaMick
294 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:41 PM
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So do I.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
32 posts
Aug 20, 2011
2:17 PM
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It sounds funny, Mudra's, wiki or google will help you further in explaining.
Making your fingers more flexible and strong will make them less boney and more aligned. It helps for RSI and a lot of other things. I can imagine it working well for this specific issue. I use it to prevent RSI and making my cupping more airtight, getting better grip on harp and mic.
Have fun with it......
And, be creative with it there are numerous variations on the standard mudras.
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gene
874 posts
Aug 20, 2011
2:33 PM
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"...I stack the ring finger partially on top of the middle finger, and the pinky partially on top of the ringer finger. I don't stick them all out in a straight line as I find it impossible to get a seal that way...."
How 'bout that! While I was reading your post, I was piddling with my fingers. Just as I was trying trying exactly that, I came to your description of it!
"...what type of mic are you using?..."
I have an SM57. That thing feels heavy to me. Also, I have an Audix Fireball V. I find it easier to hold. However, it's pointless to cup the Fireball because (1) it won't distort and (2) the screen won't let you seal it.
I'm pleasantly surprised to see that there are at least two other people in one thread who have also sworn off the two-thumbs-up.
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Matzen
219 posts
Aug 20, 2011
2:45 PM
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Just eat more!
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HarmonicaMick
295 posts
Aug 20, 2011
2:52 PM
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@ gene: there is an interview on YT where Tom Ball is being interviewed by David Barrett - it was posted here once - and he shows how he gets a seal with the thumbs-up grip, and, boy, can he get a seal?
Still, I can't do it that way. It seems as though some folks just can't do it that way either. I think Ball mentions how he has large hands and that it helps. I'd search for the vid and embed it, but I'm watching The Bourne Identity on the telly while I type.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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hvyj
1692 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:02 PM
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Cupping a Fireball will darken its tone a little and liven its response slightly, but, yeah, there's no proximity effect.
I haven't sworn off using 2 thumbs up--I just don't use it when i want a tight cup.
SM 57 is easy to cup. Use the little finger and ring finger of your left hand to wrap around the barrel of the mic behind the grill. Put the index finger and thumb along the top and bottom of the covers to grip them and put the middle finger wherever it is comfortable. then wrap the index finger of your right hand around the opposite end of the harp and the rest of your fingers around the middle and index fingers of your left hand. Right thumb over the top holes. Not hard to do.
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MrVerylongusername
1868 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:35 PM
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"Cupping a Fireball will darken its tone a little and liven its response slightly, but, yeah, there's no proximity effect."
That darkened tone and livelier response IS the proximity effect.
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Greg Heumann
1232 posts
Aug 20, 2011
4:01 PM
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SM57's are heavy. That's why the Ultimate 57 exists. And the head diameter is small enough to cause hand cramps for some people. That's why the Bulletizer exists.
Remember - a good cup requires sealing the unplayed holes on the front of the harp - not just sealing the rear. This is true for acoustic or amplified. ANY place sound pressure can escape reduces the effect of the "wah", and in the case of amplified playing, reduces the sound pressure being coupled directly to the mic's diaphragm and therefore overdriving it.
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/Greg
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nacoran
4483 posts
Aug 20, 2011
4:13 PM
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Mercedesrules, I do that on purpose sometimes. I've even experimented using my right thumb to block the ten hole from time to time to get the nine to sound. So far it's just been an experiment in technique. I haven't worked it into anything.
Hvyj, I agree, but I don't have a very prominent chin!
I have no idea if this would help, but I think some of it is observing where air leaks between your fingers. When I was a little kid I was taught a couple ways to drink water with my hands. With water it's very visual where your leaks are. Try holding your hands under the tap with the water drizzling and experiment with different ways to make sure everything is sealed. (You don't need or even want a harp in your hands while you try this, it's just to learn how your hand fits together). It may involve not having your fingers lined up exactly, particularly if your knuckles are getting in the way. If you think of your fingers like Lincoln Logs think of your knuckles as the part that sticks up on the ends and the space in between as the notches. Obviously, unless you are double jointed you won't be able to turn your fingers 90 degrees to each other, but just raising or lowering each finger a little bit relative to its neighbor can make for a much better seal. There are lots of things I don't do well, but making a good seal
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Nate
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MrVerylongusername
1871 posts
Aug 20, 2011
4:20 PM
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Seal off the front holes by jamming the harp into your cheek - seems easier to me if you don't lip block though. Seems to me it'd be hard with the two thumbs up grip too.
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hvyj
1693 posts
Aug 20, 2011
4:27 PM
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@MrVLUN: "That darkened tone and livelier response IS the proximity effect."
No. A Fireball does NOT have proximity effect like, say, a 57 or 545 does. The effects I am describing are much more subtle than one would get by cupping a mic that does have proximity effect. The element in a Fireball has very high SPL and is not susceptible to being overdriven with a tight cup. If you don't want to take my word for it, ask Greg.
Greg's Ultimate series mics are great. I always liked the sound of a 545 but never used one regularly because they are so heavy. But with a 545 Ultimate, I use it all the time with no problem. For those of us who don't like bullets, I think the 545 Ultimate has to be among the very best harp mics available. Every harp player who has played through mine at jams loves it and asks me where i got it.
And these are extremely durable mics. I got mine in January, 2009 and have been gigging and jamming with it several nights a week for most weeks since then with no problems whatsoever, and that includes dropping the mic more times than I care to remember.
Since i gig a lot and love the mic, i bought another one so i can have a spare, but I've never needed to put the spare into service. Best and most versatile harp mic I've ever played.
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MrVerylongusername
1872 posts
Aug 20, 2011
5:21 PM
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You cannot have a dynamic microphone with a directional polar response that does not exhibit a proximity effect. It may be less pronounced in different microphones - but it is a phenomenon caused by the physics of the diaphragm placement.
Proximity effect is defined as a boost to bass frequencies from close miking. Some mics designed for close miking, like the fireball, have their frequency repsonses tweaked to compensate and give a flatter response. Others like a 58 are actually favoured because they warm a vocal by exploiting the effect.
When you cup the microphone you are doing something different. You are first blocking the rear ports, creating an omnidirectional response. You are then over loading the front of the cartridge with a much higher SPL than it can handle without distortion.
You are confusing two different phenomenon.
This does not change the fact that the fireball does, as you say, have a very high SPL handling capability, and is therefore hard to overdrive.
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 6:34 PM
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