ReedSqueal
189 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:07 PM
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Is it technique? Or a very specific amp and mic combination?
(my guess both) But his sound is certainly distinctive...
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Greg Heumann
1222 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:13 PM
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I learned from Dave. He learned a lot from Gary Smith. He has great tone. Most of it is indeed technique. Great acoustic tone to start, and excellent cupping ability - which is trickier and harder to develop than beginners tend to think. It can take years. A very important key to this is that good cupping, whether acoustic or amplified, requires sealing off all unplayed holes on the FRONT of the harp, not just getting a good seal on the back. It is harder to describe than to demonstrate, but I've shown many people in the space of 5 minutes each - and it is a real eye opener. You can sit in a room with Dave and play the same harp with no amplification - and his tone is better than yours (I'm assuming) or mine. There's a lot to it. With all that said, it DOES take a good mic and amp as well.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 9:14 PM
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ReedSqueal
190 posts
Aug 19, 2011
9:43 PM
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Greg - thanks for the reply. Pretty much as I figured. But I sure would like to find out the LCD (lowest common denominator) as in his specific rig -- amp, mic and settings.
I did see a Ronnie Shellist video where he talked about a tight cup and sealing off unplayed holes [against your cheek] it makes a *huge* difference - so I know what you are getting at.
Dave is a very, very technical player. I call it engineered.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Joe_L
1431 posts
Aug 19, 2011
11:44 PM
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It's not the equipment. It's not engineered. He's studied it. He's worked his ass off.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Ant138
1070 posts
Aug 20, 2011
12:01 AM
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I am in love with Gary Smiths amplified tone.
If you have the Blues for Mr B album you will know what i mean. To me its the holy grail of tone:o)
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
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Kingley
1605 posts
Aug 20, 2011
12:02 AM
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Dave Barrett has superb tone and incredible playing skills. Simply because he has worked for years to get his playing like that. It takes lots of practice and lots of listening to get good tone. Then more practice and more practice, then even more practice. Getting the picture yet?
There is no secret sauce you can buy that will give you that tone. If you want it, you gotta be prepared to work hard to get it. Even to this day Dave constantly works at his craft to improve. That's what you have to do if you want to be good at anything in life. There are no short cuts.
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eebadeeb
11 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:50 AM
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Many of us understand that it takes practice and work to develop playing skills, specifically tone, but there must be elements to practice specific to tone. We have heard a thousand times about tone from the diaphragm and other elements, but is there practice to develop that? If I practice scales 8 hrs/day and I think that I am breathing from deep down, will the tone come or do I need to work 8 hrs on specific diaphragm muscles. That is what people need to know. We already know it takes practice. What practice?
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Kingley
1607 posts
Aug 20, 2011
3:57 AM
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You need to practice breathing from the diaphragm and relaxing the whole body to create a large resonant chamber. You also need to practice embouchure and cupping techniques. One of the best ways to learn to use the diaphragm correctly is to search online for vocal training lessons, or go to a voice coach. You also need to practice sustaining bends at all the intervals and hitting them cleanly, without bending into them. There's a lot more of stuff you can do as well. Those should give you a good foundation though.
Hope this helps.
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ReedSqueal
191 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:01 AM
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@Joe_L & Kingley: In no way was I intimating that Dave did not study nor work his ass off. It was a compliment. Not sure if you understand what an engineer is. Not the train kind either. Engineering is a discipline - that requires serious effort, study and dedication. AND working your ass off.
My question pertained to more of the specific -sound- that Dave gets. I'm not sure I totally agree with "it's not the equipment" I'm sure it has to play some roll, no matter how small. i.e. if Dave were to play through his current set up and then side-by-side he were to play through say, Jason Ricci's setup, would the sound be indistinguishable if you had your eyes closed?
Technique, I get it. Embouchure, I get it. Cupping, I get it. Tone... Etc. etc.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Lonesome Harpman
34 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:02 AM
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Gary Smith's 'Blues for Mr B' CD is one of my all time favorites.If you want to hear 'tone' you can find it here. I just wonder where you find a bass player and drummer who can play rhythm like that?
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 8:03 AM
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Greg Heumann
1231 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:07 AM
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Dave's favorite mic has a CR in it. Every time I've seen him perform, that's what he's used. I've heard him play through a lot of amps - he sounds about the same through all of them. He was using Sonny Jr amps for a long time, and is now endorsing the Megatone amps.
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/Greg
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Kingley
1608 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:18 AM
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When any harp player uses just a mic and amp with no effects. Then he will always sound pretty much the same regardless. It's all down to personal tone. Only when you put effects into the situation can the sound start to change greatly. Listen to Kim Wilson on YouTube. He plays through so many different combinations of amps when gigging around the world. Yet he always sounds just like Kim Wilson. So yes Dave will sound pretty much the same whether playing through a Bassman or a Kalamazoo. Because broadly speaking he makes the sound, not the amp.
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5F6H
809 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:29 AM
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@ Reedsqueal "My question pertained to more of the specific -sound- that Dave gets. I'm not sure I totally agree with "it's not the equipment" I'm sure it has to play some roll, no matter how small. i.e. if Dave were to play through his current set up and then side-by-side he were to play through say, Jason Ricci's setup, would the sound be indistinguishable if you had your eyes closed?"
Gear is the medium through which you project your sound, if your gear does not allow you to project your sound then you probably won't like it...but if offered a selection of gear most players aim to hear their familiar sound from it, if they're happy with that, then the sound from one amp to another might not be identical, but it will probably be "ball park".
If you sound like Dave Barret without an amp, then you stand a good chance of sounding like him if you use his amp, but don't expect his amp to make you sound like him.
Yes, the gear plays it's part, you won't hear the harp without it, but you have to have the sound at source to make the "whole".
If you can afford to buy the same gear as Dave, knock yourself out, but no matter how hard you work, you'll only know if you have cracked it when you stand side by side with him...I'm not sure whether there is a big demand for "mirror" acts in music. ;-) Remember the phrase "close enough for rock'n'roll"...if your playing is of a decent quality & your tone is just ball-park, your audience won't know/mind/care if it is "the same" as Dave's or not.
What makes many good players what they are, is the fact that they have distinctive & unique tones & you can recognise who they are without being told.
I hope this doesn't sound like a patronising "just be yourself, don't copy" post, it's not meant in that way, just as an answer to your specific question.
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 8:31 AM
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The Iceman
75 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:51 AM
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Important to big tone is how you set up your inner throat. I like to call it "Pre Yawn".
Make yourself yawn. Notice how when you start to get into it, the back of your throat will open up and your adams apple (if you're a guy) will move down - just before you get into a full blown yawn. This is the "pre yawn attitude". You can hold it by gently flexing those neck muscles. Now, if you speak, you will sound more like James Earl Jones "Luke, I am your Father".
This is how actors and tv anchors train themselves to have a more resonant voice.
The same will happen to give you deeper resonance in your harmonica sound.
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The Iceman
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hvyj
1686 posts
Aug 20, 2011
8:52 AM
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It ain't the equipment. Dave knows a lot about techniques for getting good tone--some of which are very subtle.
I read a suggestion he sent in a promo email once that got me practicing and eventually led to a wholesale improvement in my tone after I worked at implementing his suggestion because it wound up influencing other aspects of my technique. This guy really understands the components of good harp tone.
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harpaddict
40 posts
Aug 20, 2011
9:28 AM
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Dave's current rig is a Megatone ME-18, a delay pedal, and a Shure 707A Shell with a Black CR Element.
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Joe_L
1432 posts
Aug 20, 2011
12:27 PM
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If you want to learn to sound like David, maybe you should take lessons from him.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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ReedSqueal
192 posts
Aug 20, 2011
12:37 PM
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Never said I wanted to sound like David. I was simply asking what makes his sound/tone so distinctive.
But as for technique and tongue blocking I'd love take lessons from David.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Joe_L
1433 posts
Aug 20, 2011
1:33 PM
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I don't think his sound is super unique where I live. He sounds a lot like Gary Smith. He is a student of Gary's. Some of David's best students have deep resonant tone. Aki Kumar has deep rich tone. Greg has really nice tone, too. Screamin' Iain has fabulous tone. There are many more.
I guess I made my point somewhat poorly. If you want deep tone, go to a guy like David. His teachings seem to work.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Ray
349 posts
Aug 21, 2011
4:40 AM
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He prefers a Dan Echo delay pedal and he gives the setting of the pedal on his website. Under the heading GEAR.
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tbirdflier
26 posts
Aug 21, 2011
9:33 AM
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I think the real beauty with harp players, guitar players, etc. no two sound exactly alike and that to me makes the world go around.
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tbirdflier
27 posts
Aug 21, 2011
9:33 AM
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I think the real beauty with harp players, guitar players, etc. no two sound exactly alike and that to me makes the world go around.
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ReedSqueal
193 posts
Aug 21, 2011
10:07 AM
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What I find ironic is that the gist of the replies are that it's the players technique, not the equipment - but yet there are a couple of current threads about first amp and amp mods, and most of the replies talk about the tonal differences of amps, and the differences between solid state and tube, and even going as far as saying that the choice of tubes and various tube combinations can affect your sound.
Amp Upgrade
What should be my first first amp
Just sayin'
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Kingley
1614 posts
Aug 21, 2011
10:19 AM
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ReedSqueal - That's because all of those things do alter your sound and each one changes it in different ways. The changes though are extremely minimal compared to what the player does acoustically. It's your basic acoustic tone that ultimately determines how you end up sounding. If a player sounds like crap, then all the gear in the world isn't going to change that. All it will do is make the player sound even crappier and at a higher volume.
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Joe_L
1438 posts
Aug 21, 2011
11:30 AM
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The skill of the player makes a huge difference. I've played through a variety of other harp player's equipment. I've followed David on stage. We used the same equipment. I used his settings.
I've followed Gary Smith. I used his amp. I used his settings.
I've followed RJ Mischo. I used his amp and settings.
I've followed Greg Heumann a lot. I've used his gear and settings. I liked one of his amps so much that I bought it.
I've followed Billy Branch. He used my amp and settings.
The results were the completely consistent. I never sounded like those guys. Although, one guy did confuse me with David Barrett. I think it was because we are both tall.
Just sayin'
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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5F6H
813 posts
Aug 21, 2011
12:09 PM
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@ Reedsqueal, I think you're missing the point a little, the amp & mic are a medium for projecting "your sound", not so much "making your sound". Your sound starts with you & ends with what comes out of the speaker(s)& everything between those 2 points has some effect. Ultimately, it has to sound like something you like & recognise, so yes there are lots of tricks for optimising it.
An amp that works in getting Dave Barret's sound accross at a useable volume, in a given environment, will work for competant players just as well, but each may have their preferences to optimise the sound.
There's not really any irony or contradiction.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2011 3:06 AM
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MakaInOz
49 posts
Aug 21, 2011
9:11 PM
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If you get into some of Dave Barrett's lessons you'll find how much thought and technique he puts into every note and phrase. Some of it is almost unreal to me, but he discusses his thoughts on the sound he is trying to create and then shows the teechniques he uses to create that sound.
He has a huge 'toolbox' of techniques and thinks a lot about how to apply them. So all you need to get the Dave Barrett sound is mastery of the many techniques he uses and the skill of applying them as he does!!
The mic and amp are the (almost irrelevant) bits of hardware used to to implement the plan.
Maka
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Greg Heumann
1236 posts
Aug 21, 2011
9:39 PM
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I totally agree with 5F6H and MakaInOz's statements above.
There is no argument that amp and mic make a difference - in fact they can make a very large difference. Dave Barrett through Rig A sounds different than Dave Barrett through Rig B. But in BOTH cases, it still sounds like David Barrett because of how he plays and what he plays.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2011 9:40 PM
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HarpNinja
1596 posts
Aug 21, 2011
9:50 PM
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FWIW, I think of his tone as being dark and relatively clean at the amp. It sounds thick, but I think a lot of it has been covered here. His cupping is unreal and his tone settings are bass heavy.
I do understand the difference between someone's amped tone and general tone. If you're looking at a similar amped sound, a big amp set dark is pretty much all you'd need.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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ReedSqueal
194 posts
Aug 21, 2011
10:01 PM
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@Greg:
"There is no argument that amp and mic make a difference - in fact they can make a very large difference. Dave Barrett through Rig A sounds different than Dave Barrett through Rig B. But in BOTH cases, it still sounds like David Barrett because of how he plays and what he plays."
Ok, now THAT I can wrap my head around.
I guess I didn't really ask the right question(s).
So let's say "Rig A" is Dave's day to day "Dave's Sound" rig. The question should have been 'what amp and mic set up is he using?' (Which essentially has been answered here and I found out on another site as well)
Oh well, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse.
Thanks for everyone's patience.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2011 10:07 PM
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5F6H
814 posts
Aug 22, 2011
2:19 AM
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Reedsqueal, an analogy that I like to use is this...
If you watch a John Wayne movie on a portable black & white TV (if you remember those) & you watch the same movie on a new HD 42" flatscreen TV, in both cases you still recognise John Wayne, his accent & mannerisms (he's not suddenly going to look & sound like Clint Eastwood for example)the action, dialogue etc are all the same scenes, you will still enjoy the movie if you are a fan...but they ultimately DO look different - one is monochrome & tiny, pixelated, unless you are very close you might find yourself squinting in an effort to catch the detail. The other is full colour & detailed, more relaxing, less of a struggle to watch.
The amp that works for you is like the 42" HD flatscreen, allowing you to play with nuance, let the detail & subtlety shine through. Another amp might well get the job done, whatever notes played will still hopefully be recogniseable, as will the player and his style...but it might take more effort & ultimately be a less rewarding an experience.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2011 3:05 AM
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