Hi all you horn blowers out there I am thinking of upgrading my blues junior for something with a bit more drive . the junior is great for practice but on jam nights down my local the rest of the band seem to drown me out even when im miked up through the p.a Any tips on mikeup or upgrades most welcome.Tombo.
I own a blues Jr and never use it for harp. Too much feedback. I do have a Fender 59 Bassman reissue that has some serious balls. But I also have a 71 Fender Champ. With this mic'ed on stage, I get plenty of oomph. ---------- ChipperHarp http://www.myspace.com/chipperharp
I think the Blues Jr. is a great sounding amp for harp.Through the P.A. I'll bet you're plenty loud "in the house". Are you in the monitor? That can open a whole 'nother can of feedback worms,so you'd have to fiddle with it. Try pointing the amp away from your mic and rely more on the monitor. Don't use the "fat" switch on the BJr. It makes feedback worse, at least for me. I have a Bassman head/cab combo and it helped some, but I still have to mic it to hear myself.90% of the bands I jam with, play too loud, IMHO. You can ask them to turn down, but they'll probably look at you like you're crazy. LOL If you have lots of disposable income, you can buy a Kinder anti- feedback device. I know several players that own one, and they swear by them. Close to $400, I believe.
I had a Blues Junior at one time and never was satified with it, so I sold it. Sonny Jr had a Kalamazoo 1 amplifier that he had gone through and it turned out to have tones of more tone before feedback and was actually louder than the Blues Junior. I have a Silvertone 1483 that has turned into a great stage amp, that I blow through a 4x10 homemade cab. You can see pictures of these at www.bushdogblues.blogspot.com
I love my Blues Junior for harp. But I have to tell you that I have done some work and got it to do what I want. The biggest secret is that you can mod it to take out some unwanted frequencies. First, you need to understand that factory Blues Juniors are made with mid level frequency that you can not dial out. Have you ever noticed that a factory Blues Junior will still have tone through it if you dial all of the tone controls to zero? You can not take that mid range tone out unless you do what is known as they Billm twinstack mod. It is as simple as soldering two legs of the mid range tone control together. When done correctly, your Blues Junior will produce no sound at all when all the tone controls are zeroed. And you have even more range of mid range control. I consider this mod absolutely essential for harp use.
I have done some other mods to my Blues Junior and it has become very user friendly. Just take a look at Billm's home page.
http://machrone.home.comcast.net/~machrone/
http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/bluesjunior.htm I hope this helps.....
I just reread my post and realized that I assumed that you have already done the tube swaps. You need a lower gain tube in V1 so that your mic is better suited for the amp. I use a 12ay7. You can also swap the V3 tube to a 12dw7, this unbalances the inverter section of the amp and it gives it a fuller and more likable harp tone. There are some vender's out there that sell tube sets that do exactly what I am telling you. Try harp Depot's: http://www.harpdepot.com/productdetail/~Model/ECC1512~/d.html
I bought my tubes from a tube dealer and have several to try out.
Thanks for the feedback on the blues junior guys gonna try the amp upgrade .Is it simple swapon the valves or do I need to do anything else also does anyone know if I CAN BUY ONLINE IN UK.cheers Tombo
MN
Guest
May 14, 2008
8:35 AM
Tombo: Since you're in UK you should REALLY check out Marble Amps in Holland. I have a Marble Max harp amp and it kicks a$$!
Hi All: I've alway heard that the first thing you do with a Blues Jr. for harp is the tube swap and change the speaker. Had not heard about the Billm mod. Thanks for that Train.
But I've also always wondered that after doing all that, what are you really buying? Why not do it right in the first place. With so many great harp specific amps out there now, MN's advise on the Marble amp is spot on.
Plus have you ever looked really closely at a new Blues Jr.? Good from far but far from good. The knob shafts are plastic with no support where they come through the amp body. The metal casings are thin and cheap looking. The tube sockets are mounted right on the pc boards. Not my cup of tea.
I've never played harp through a Blues Jr., but I've tried playing through my Fender Blues Deluxe, and have never had any luck getting a decent harp tone through it. Likewise through a vintage '65 Deluxe Reverb. Both of these amps are beautiful for guitar, I couldn't produce a decent harp tone no matter how much I tweaked it. My theory has been that harps need speakers no bigger than 10 inches, and of course all these amps come with 12's, but I could be wrong...
Lets face it, amps were all made for guitar. The companies out there spend a lot of money to make guitars sound good. Its just by the need to amplify harps that someone stuck a microphone in front of a harp and found ways to get it to work. The vintage fender champs and some of the gibsons made wonderful harp amps. Those vintage amps are fetching out of reach prices showing us that demand is much higher than the dwindling supply.
So what do we got? There are amp builders making harp amps and there are a few of them that are awesome, and so are the prices. I have to keep a budget in check by, she who makes the rules, so I am drawn to the low dollar amps and I try to enhance them.
The Blues Junior is my higher end project and has much to boast about compared to my 5 watt projects. Once the appropriate tube swaps and mic matching is done, dialing in good tone is fun because of the tone control and a touch of reverb. A speaker swap can greatly improve good tone too. I still use my Blues Junior for guitar so when I want to enhance harp tone by speaker, I plug the Blues Junior in to an extension cab.( I too, have found that better harp tone comes from smaller smooth cone alnico speakers)- another reason I use extension cabs.
These days I have been playing around with the 5 watt single ended amps. I had fun modding a version #2 Valve Junior head and I am really pleased with its tone. Since then, the version #3 has upgraded most of the problems that The earlier versions had. Blackheart has further enhanced the 5 watter head by adding tone control and a half power switch that has become more useful than most would have imagined.
Harp players need to tame feedback, they need a amp that is expressive and they need a versital amp that can help them find their own tone(at a reasonable cost so that it is within the rules of she who makes them).
IMO, the best bang for the buck is get a blem Valve Junior. Swap out the tubes (12ay7, JJ el84). Buy a Danelectro 'fish and chips' for feedback control. Add what ever pedals that trip your trigger (a touch of slap back echo, maybe a tad of reverb). Plug in your favorite mic and build your own cabs (its the best way to pick and choose speaker tones for harp). Remember , You always can mix and match speakers for combinations of tones.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2008 5:45 PM
Here's a few links for Blues Jr mods: http://www.torresengineering.com/newinbarepuu.html http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/bluesjunior.htm
Or check out Dave Kott's site for amp mods. Dave worked on my Blues Jr and did a hell of a job. He makes a boutique amp that is a really great sounding (and looking) amp. He is also about the best source for shure microphone information. Check out his site, there is some great info on there. http://greenbulletmics.com/Getting_the_Best_Tone_From.html
I think one of the best things I did to my BJ is the speaker swap. I found a pair of vintage 1956 Jensen P12R's (in fact they were still in a sealed military bag and unopened boxes). I didn't like the BJ cabinet so I made a new one, the right way (good quality pine with finger joints and sealed) I also made a matching extension cab. Yeah, these are only 15 watters so don't expect to use them in anything but a small gig. I also have a 59 Bassman that I use for most of my gigs. But the BJ with the extension is great for small stuff or for home practice.
Yoder
Guest
May 21, 2008
6:11 AM
I love my Blues JR. for jams. It's small and light to carry and very loud before feedback. I use a vintage Shure 545SD dynamic mic. The only thing I did is replace the first preamp tube with a lower gain tube. Set it up on a chair if you need more loudness. I can cut through some pretty loud bands.
I have a BJ and i just ordered a Eminence Cannibis Rex speaker for it and some new tubes looking foward to hearing some difference in it. I took the advice of Brian Purdy Master Harp Amp Builder!!!!!
I had a Blues Jr once. The very first thing you should do is reduce the gain with tube subs. even then I didn't like it. The tone stack mod Train-Train is talking about might have really helped.
And here's Koei Tanaka, who was introducing the Manji hrp for Suzuki, playing one of my Kalamazoo's at last year's SPAH. You'll notice it isn't mic'd - however don't let that mislead you - this was a controlled band. It is loud, but not "jam loud".
Once upon a time, I had a Blues Jr. When the Princeton Reverb Reissue came out I sold the BJ and purchased a PRRI. No regrets.
Both amps are the same wattage, but for harp you can get louder before feedback w/ the PRRI because the BJ is a higher gain circuit. PRRI also has deeper reverb. It also has a 10" speaker and I happen to like 10s for harp. The BJ has a 12.
But, IMHO, neither is an amp you can use for a large gig un-mic'd.
I just got a fender blues jr on ebay, pretty cheap, partly modded with the billmaudio.com mods which i've mostly completed. the amp now has a Gimongous range of tonalities. But it still doesn't have the sawtooth (many even numbered harmonics logarithmically decreasing in amplitude according to distance from the fundamental) waveform which categorizes the ideal amp according to Adam. although all of billmaudio.com's mods are essential to making a versatile amp out of the blues jr, I am also attempting to design a mod that gives that sax-like even-harmonic tone, as an option. BillM emphasizes High Clean response, and gets it, inside there I will find a way to get the blended horn-like tone. All suggestions are welcome.
@ lor " But it still doesn't have the sawtooth (many even numbered harmonics logarithmically decreasing in amplitude according to distance from the fundamental) waveform which categorizes the ideal amp according to Adam. although all of billmaudio.com's mods are essential to making a versatile amp out of the blues jr, I am also attempting to design a mod that gives that sax-like even-harmonic tone, as an option."
I build, design, customise, service & have consulted on amp designs and I have to admit, that's pretty strange set of parameters by which to rate an amp, especially a push-pull Blues Jr, which by it's design, cancels a degree of even order harmonics at the output section. You still have those generated in the preamp to play with though...
I've said it before and I'll say it again. In my short harp career, I've tried several different amp/pedal combinations trying to get great tone/volume without feedback. The Kalamazoo I got from Greg is by far the best tone that I personally have had. Using the line out option to run the amp through the PA allows me to be heard even at the loudest jams. Buying a Kalamazoo 2 that has been gone over by Greg is much less expensive than buying a new blues jr. and you don't have to modify it in any way. Just plug it in and start playing.
Nice thread, my 2 cents. I have spent 25 years buying fender this, fender that, originals, reissues, gibsons, maestros, bogans, mascos, ovey, lots of them. And everyone needed a tube swap, tube change, this replace that replaced, this soldered, and then I would get on stage and it would hum.
Enough!! I bought a Sonny Jr super cruncher. No tube swaps, no dialing this or that, just plug in and play. Sure it costs a lot but you will never be failed again, no fussing around with the tubes or speakers or this or that and you won't have to bring it to a tech for them to experiment on.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 6:55 AM
You know, a lot of this depends on what kind of sound the player is after.
Something called a "Super Cruncher" is probably good for a player who likes "crunch." I've had my Fender Super Reverb Reissue side by side with a Sonny Junior at jams on more than one occasion and played through each amp. Personally, I think the Super Rverb is the far superior amp FOR THE SOUND I AM AFTER. But i don't use a bullet mic and I'm not into a lot of overdrive and distortion between notes.
Is the Super a better amp than the SJ? It depends what kind of sound the player is trying to achieve. But, neither my Fender Super Reverb Reissue nor my Princeton Reverb Reissue hum or pop or have required mods (except for some tube swaps in the Super). Both have been very durable and reliable amps--and I've gigged quite a bit with the Super.
I don't understand why so many players rave about SJs. But that's probably because they are designed to produce a different type of tone than what I am after. Apparently the SJ is great at producing a type of tone many players find appealing. To me, SJs sound like they are an improved Fender Bassman, and I've never liked the sound of a Fender Bassman anyway. But there's certainly a lot of other harp players who do.
My point is that it's not possible to identify a good harp amp in the abstract. Certain amps are better for producing certain types of sounds than others. It all depends on whether a particular amp is good at getting the sort of tone a particular player is after. A player has to understand what type of sound he is trying to produce and select an amp accordingly.
Some musicians try to imitate sounds they've heard on a recording. Other musicians try to recreate a sound they hear in their head. There's no right or wrong to this but it is important for the player to know what it is he's trying to do. FWIW.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 4:01 PM
@5F6H "You still have those generated in the preamp" Right. The pushpull power out section only cancels the even harmonics generated by itself; unless you throw it a bit off balance. For the record, I don't think Adam ever specified the sawtooth waveform in so many words, but after experimenting with a programmable synthesizer, that waveform sounds like (to me) the tone he praises in his amp demos.
You can throw it right off balance if you like :-), with a 12DW7 in the PI, or by killing/disconnecting the signal at the "out of phase" power tube's grid (being sure not to kill the tube's negative grid voltage & send the tube into meltdown, in fixed bias applications). Adam has often expressed a preference for "small, 5W" style amps, typically these are single-ended...lots of good harp sounds recorded on single-ended amps, can be a useful recording/low volume feature to have a SE mode available on a P-P amp. Running cooler than normal bias on a P-P fixed bias amp can fool the listener into hearing a more SE type tone too.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 8:17 AM
Btw, one of the tube swaps in my Super Reverb is a 12DW7 in the phase inverter slot. I like it.
My take on Adam's sound: Sounds great for what he is doing and he is a terrific player. Personally, i prefer a much more focused tone for what i do, and I would not try to imitate his sound myself.
What i find remarkable about most of the amp and mic discussions is the number of players who are making a diligent effort to sound like some well known player or another and how few seem to be interested in achieving a particular sound of their own. Not that either way of doing it is right or wrong so long as the player winds up with a sound he likes.
The original post in this thread asks about AMPLITUDE in a Blues Junior, not tone. Tombo says he is drowned out in jams even when he is mic'ed up through the PA.
It's the same with all low-power amps: You can't hear yourself. Tombo may have been running through the PA but it sounds like he was not in the monitor system or there was not a wedge nearby he could hear.
Joe-L's answer is good as far as it goes: Get a bigger amp. But there are other solutions. First, try tilting the amp back so it points more toward your head as you play. Next, try raising the amp up on an amp stand, moving it closer to your ears. Both of these steps might increase the potential for feedback, so be prepared to dial back the highs. Make sure the FAT switch is OFF.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 8:37 AM
@hvyi_ very insightful comments. I once had a couple of Super Reverb, black face, great amp, super tone, lots of balls, heavy in weight as all getout.
I didn't get a Super Reverb to get a "reverb sound" no more than I got a Super Cruncher to get a "crunchey" sound. That's ridiculous and I don't know any serious harp player who would buy an amp based on the name.
I never said the SJ was the be all, end all, and I have no interest in getting into a piss up with you about whatever is better. For me, I plug it in and it works, no tubes swaps no speakers swaps, no pedals, nothing. I am not into micro setting this or that. I am what I am and the amp swings for me. I live in CT and if I have an issue with the amp, I take it to the guy I bought it from and he fixes it. I like that dependability.
Whatever swings for you, swings for you, I wouldn't even dream as to what is important to you. You are clearly more gearcentric than I. But the poster asked for a suggestion for an upgraded amp and I gave it.
You seems pretty knowledgeable. Why don't you give the poster a recommendation for an amp as he asked for, rather a critique that nobody asked for?
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 9:04 AM
Gee, one of the reasons i got my Super Reverb is because I DO like a tube reverb sound. I put casters (wheels) on mine because it is heavy.
Anyway, I can get louder with my Fender Princeton Reverb than I used to be able to get with the Blues Junior I used to own. But it's not big enough to play loud gigs.
I didn't like my BJ. It's a fairly versatile amp, but even with tube swaps (which are essential) it's still very high gain--too high gain IMHO. Maybe good for guitar, but not for harp, IMHO. Also it has a master volume control. In general, I don't think tube amps with a master volume sound as good for harp as those without master volume controls. It has a 12" speaker which i don't think sounds as good for harp as a 10" speaker. The reverb is solid state and sounds cheesy. BUT, Ruby Tubes makes a after market replacement tank which sounds much better than the stock reverb tank, especially if you bag it (the stock tank is not bagged). I'm not a BJ fan--I sold mine to get my PRRI when those came out. No regrets. So, that's my take on the BJ based on personal experience.
Want recommendations? OK, i have 2 different amps that I use for larger gigs: My Super Reverb Reissue or an SWR Baby Baby Blue acoustic bass amp which has sophisticated semi parametric EQ for tone shaping, 120 watts and will not feedback even at very loud volume, but only has one 10" speaker so it doesn't have as much presence as the SRRI. i can get my sound out of either of them. I'm completely satisfied with these two amps each of which has a little different sound which gives me some variety depending on the nature of the particular gig i am playing and what sort of amp the guitar player on the gig will be using since balance in the overall sound of the band is important. But both give me the sound I am after and i would highly recommend either of them FOR THE SOUND I AM AFTER which may be a little cleaner than some players might prefer.
I use my Princeton for duo gigs and small informal jams or if i happen to be playing with a small low volume combo. I have a strong preference for amps w/ 10" speakers. All 3 of my amps have 10s. FWIW.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 4:02 PM
@ BHarper "The original post in this thread asks about AMPLITUDE in a Blues Junior, not tone. Tombo says he is drowned out in jams even when he is mic'ed up through the PA."
Sure a bigger amp is the first port of call, but I guess as the OP is asking for mic'ing tips/upgrades as well, we should explore oher options too...after all if he had the spare wedge handy for a big amp, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.
A speaker driven line-out will get you more on-stage & FOH volume than mic'ing the amp. Crazy volume if the speaker is replaced with an adequate load box.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 9:51 AM
I also like 10" speakers, I like the tone of single ended amps. They have a singing quality to them that push pull circuits lack. I raise the value of the power tube bypass cap to 100uf. Depending on the amp there are many mods that can be done. I 100% agree with Greg. There are some things I'm sure I do differently than he, but its the same approach! I did a epiphone for someone just recently and it is a sweet sounding amp. Maybe to much gain and breakup, but it sure sounds good at 3! Or 10 O'clock on the volume dial. I don't think it has numbers. Edit: I brought up the epiphone because it is almost the exact same amp as a Kalamazoo. They may have been built in the same factory. They are that similiar!
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 1:19 PM
Some guys sell 12" to 10" converter rings which will allow you to try a 10" in the Blues Jr.
Push pull circuits can be switched to single ended fairly easily...though I wouldn't want to do it on Blues Jr, just 'cause I HATE working on them.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 9:55 AM
@hvyi_ Can you describe your playing style that neccessitates the clean sound you are after? Do you play single notes or do you tb and play a lot of chords? Do you overblow? What kind of music styles do you play? And do you use devices/effects? It would shed greater light on why you chose the amps you do. My BF SuperReverb was a dirty little monster, are the RI cleaner sounding? I had a 59 Bassman and it was different than the RI Bassman, different animals altogether.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 7:51 PM
@6SN7: Well, since you've asked, I don't OB but I do play multiple positions (six) regularly. I play Richter tuned ET harps exclusively and I can (and regularly do) play in minor keys without using minor tuned harps. I don't play a lot of chords--mostly single notes. I mean, I'll play an occasional chord if it fits the music, but I tend to play split interval double stops (like octaves) more often than chords. i will rarely "chug" except if the song absolutely requires it.
I'm a mixed embouchure player but I primarily LP. I regularly TB for split intervals. I can TB for single notes but usually don't. I'll sometimes do tongue pulls and slaps off of split intervals (split double stops) but almost never for chords. In other words I never do the David Barrett style pulls and slaps for chords. I am more of a single note player, but i do use splits.
I play the whole harp routinely meaning that in addition to using the lower and middle registers, I will get up on the high end to play runs or melodies usually without blow bends and i will play across the registers. I am capable of playing pretty fast keeping proper meter and clean separation between notes--I'm not playing fast all the time but i will regularly link phrases or musical ideas with a fast run (16th notes). I can play some sax lines (depending on the phrasing) at sax speed. If i set up for distortion, i lose separation between notes if I play at fast tempo--the distortion from the first note will still be happening as i move to the next note if I'm playing fast so everything tends to sound like mush. I also find that if i set up for distortion i lose articulation for high register melody playing.
I also vary where i place notes in relation to the beat and i will often fool with the timbre or presentation of notes and bends for effect. If i set up for distortion, I lose the articulation necessary to shape the notes and bends in order do that. Instead of being able to change tone and timbre with technique, i will just get varying levels of distortion when i try to do that if i am set up for a "Chicago" sound. If I do want some grit, I'll tight cup my mic and constrict my throat a little.
I will also sustain relatively long bends upward sometimes if it fits the tune, meaning i will hit a certain chord tone bent and slowly release the bend upward. If I set up for distortion, holding a note that way can sound pretty grating. I like playing with little reverb for depth and don't like playing "dry."
I like the way notes can "fade" into the reverb (or delay). I will alter my attack sometimes so that the sound will seem to fade into or emerge from the dimension of the reverb which i think can sound pretty cool in the right spots. A distorted tone is ordinarily too jagged to enable me to do that effectively. Now, I'm not swimming in reverb or anything that heavy, but i do like the dimension i get from a little reverb or delay.
The sound I hear in my head is a thick, deep, dark, warm tone with a little reverb (or delay) and slight tube texture. I can get that with the SWR since it has a tube preamp even though the power stage is solid state. The SRRI gives me a little more texture and more punch or presence but if I set the tone and volume controls right, I get a nice thick deep dark tone. The PRRI is smaller of course and will generate more tube texture if it is pushed and certainly can easily be pushed into tight breakup and tube compression. But it can be kept clean unless you have to crank it to get high volume which will cause it to break up--nice tight breakup, though. If i want to, i can push the Super into heavy tube compression depending on where i set the controls, but i usually don't. The Super can certainly be kept as clean as you want it--or not. It's very versatile.
The Reissues i have sound pretty close to original BF Fenders of the same model but they are sonically more consistent--the old ones tended to sound a little different each time. Also because the speakers on the originals were old, the originals tended to have a little more bark to them. But the RIs are otherwise pretty close. An old SF SR like you had would sound different than an old BF SR--apples and oranges different. BUT, depending on how i set the tone controls and/or which channel i use, i can can a pretty dirty sound out of my SRRI if i want to, but i usually don't dial it in that way. If you spend time fooling around with the settings, you can get a lot of different sounds from the SRRI. It's an extremely versatile amp after you spend some time figuring out how to use it.
The trick to getting rich depth of tone out of these particular Fenders is to turn the volume up to 6 or higher. These amps really come alive at those higher volume settings but I have to roll volume off with a VC on the mic to set performance levels and control feedback. Works very well. For a mic, these days I generally use a 545 Utimate.
Btw, I like JJ tubes. I think they have a nice warm fat sound for harp. i think the stock tubes that come with the fender RIs sound harsh--maybe ok for guitar, but a little too harsh for harp, IMHO.
I use pedals with the SWR, and that amp works really well with effects pedals and requires a delay in the chain anyway since there's no on board reverb. The musicians i work with like me to use MicroPog sometimes and occasional rotary sound so i have put together a different and smaller pedalboard i use with my Super. The Super is very finicky about pedals. i had to get a MP with a true bypass mod from Analogman before that pedal would sound right with the Super and I use a different pedal for rotary sound than i do w/ the SWR. I rarely if ever use the SWR without pedals, but sometimes I'll use the Super without pedals and the Super sounds equally good with or without a pedal board. I rarely use pedals with the Princeton although the Princeton sounds good with pedals and is not finicky like the Super.
Incidentally, i can actually get a tube compression like sound from my SWR by using a RetroSonic Phaser pedal that i have on the pedalboard I use with that amp. You've got to dial in the phaser a certain way to get that sound, but it's pretty cool if you do it right. I don't have a phaser on the pedalboard i use with the Super since it wouldn't sound good with that amp.
As for styles of music, i play hard rocking blues with my blues band, but we will occasionally do a jazz set to open if the venue is serving dinner or we are playing a wedding. I usually use my Super for the blues band gigs. I'm not really a jazz player, but i have a small repertoire of jazz tunes i can handle. I play as a sideman sometimes with another band that plays a very wide variety of material including jazz, rock, blues, R&B, and reggae. I will usually use the SWR with that band. I also will use the SWR if i am sitting in with a reggae band as i sometimes do. I use effects very heavily through the SWR but only occasionally with the Super and rarely with the Princeton. Both of the bandleaders i work with have masters degrees in music and also have jazz bands that i get invited to sit in with and i will usually use the SWR with pedalboard for that. I occasionally play a duo gig with a singer/guitar player who does groove oriented New Orleans style material and I'll use the Princeton Reverb w/ no pedals when I play with him.
I like a thick deep dark warm tone with some reverb or delay as my basic sound. It works fine for blues and also works for the variety of other styles i play. I don't find a distorted set up to be as versatile or articulate. On my non-blues gigs i am often fitting harp to tunes that don't have harp parts and that's easier to do without distortion. On my blues gig I regularly swap extended solos with the guitar player and i think i can get better dynamics and more variety in my sound without distortion so that my harp playing doesn't become a pain in the ass for the audience to listen to given the number and length of the solos i am required to play. i also find that I am able to get superior articulation at fast tempos without distortion. And it's a whole lot easier to play with articulation in the high register without distortion. Plus I can get sounds that are a better expression of how I feel without masking my tone with distortion and, after all, playing what one feels is what it's all about anyway.
So...since you asked, that's what i do and that's the reason i have selected the particular equipment i use. i am very satisfied with the sound i get out of the amps i use. Of course, a player with different objectives may find different equipment to be more suitable for what they are trying to do. My point has been that a player is better off if they can identify reasons to select particular gear other than the reputation a particular item may have as being good for harmonica since that's much too general of a criterion to be a useful as a guide, IMHO.
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 5:47 PM
6SN7 wrote "My BF SuperReverb was a dirty little monster, are the RI cleaner sounding? I had a 59 Bassman and it was different than the RI Bassman, different animals altogether."
It's more the case that 2 different 59 RIs can be very different animals, B+ voltage varies by up to 60vdc on the RIs (all things being equal, B+ voltage has the biggest influence on tone), genuine 59's are more consistent. An authentic 59/RI/reproduction will run 465vdc to 480vdc-ish on the power tube plates with a 5AR4 rectifier...some RIs hit 520vdc+! Preferences vary on this point. The mahogany baffle on the original has an impact on tone but these are often replaced due to wear & tear. The cheapy 12AX7 tubes in the RI (& replacing the early 59RI SS rectifier) are otherwise big factors. Like the BF Super Reverb & the 65 RI, the 59 RI shares the same circuit values with a 1959 bassman (there are a couple of minor differences related to filter caps, these do not greatly affect tone).
Many old amps have had speakers & tubes replaced with preferred types (new ones come with what the mfr can get cheaply & reliably), this obviously has an effect on tone, but the manufacturers can't take any credit/blame for what people have fitted to their amp in the 50yrs since it left the factory.
Not that this makes it easier for the prospective amp buyer, amps are never advertised quoting B+ voltage...but often a little "blueprinting" and tube brand subs can make an RI ball-park compared to an original.
@5F6H: i would be interested in your take on this. I've played through SJs and Harp Gear amps using my 545 Ultimate (lo-z with an IMT) and to my ear they sounded muddy. Nice depth of tone, good volume but limited definition--tonally somewhat indistinct or muddy.
Now, the owners of these amps typically played through bullet mics. With a bullet, these amps did NOT sound muddy. I didn't find the tone particularly appealing, but for those who like that type of tone, both the SJs and the Harp Gears did that sort of thing reasonably well even though it's not the type of sound I'm after.
My conclusion, based on my experiences trying these amps and having read some of the promo info on the SJ and Harp Gear websites is that these amps are specifically designed for optimum performance with bullet mics. I've always assumed that's why they sound muddy when used with a high quality XLR style mic. Based on your considerable knowledge of amp design, is my assumption correct?
@5F6H: since I'm in the process of mining your knowledge,while I'm at it, here's another related question for you.
You seem to know a lot about amp design, so I'm thinking you may know something about pedal design as well. I'm a pedal board user, but I'm always very concerned about the effect any pedal has on my tone when it is NOT engaged, so, for the most part, i use true bypass pedals and since I never have more than 4 effects in my chain, they are all UNbuffered.
i hear a lot abut the Lone Wolf Harp Delays which are touted as being true bypass, but the LW website also says this:
"The dry portion of the signal passes through a buffered input.... The input is FET buffered for high impedance to provide proper loading for your favorite crystal or cm mic. The gain has been reduced to prevent solid-state distortion and is balanced to have an overall gain of 1x so that the level is the same when bypassed."
From this, I assume that the buffered input is specifically designed for use with bullet mics and would not be optimum for use with an XLR style mic through an IMT. Further, I doubt the design described could actually be true bypass, so I am assuming it is not, despite what is claimed. Never actually have had an opportunity to try a LW Delay, though.
Again, based on your knowledge of electronics, can you tell me if these two assumptions are valid?
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 1:31 PM
Since the OP was at least partially about volume, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned a "line out". This is a feature that allows you to plug your small amp into the input of a larger amp or PA for more volume without overloading the input of the larger amp. It may not be the best of solutions, since some of your amp's unique sound comes from the speaker, but in a lot of situations it sure beats having to set up a mike and then have to fiddle around with the PA, too, especially jams. I don't have time to get into the technicalities now, but Gerald Weber tells you how to make one in his book "a Desktop Reference Of Hip Vintage Guitar Amps" (I even have the page bookmarked in my copy,page 218), and you can google a website about Kalamazoo Model 1 & 2 modifications that has a version, and I'll bet there's a lot more on google. Oh, and I think (and a lot of people agree) that the VHT Special 6 is best low-price 5 watt harp amp right out of the box.
Since the OP was at least partially about volume, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned a "line out". This is a feature that allows you to plug your small amp into the input of a larger amp or PA for more volume without overloading the input of the larger amp. It may not be the best of solutions, since some of your amp's unique sound comes from the speaker, but in a lot of situations it sure beats having to set up a mike and then have to fiddle around with the PA, too, especially jams. I don't have time to get into the technicalities now, but Gerald Weber tells you how to make one in his book "a Desktop Reference Of Hip Vintage Guitar Amps" (I even have the page bookmarked in my copy,page 218), and you can google a website about Kalamazoo Model 1 & 2 modifications that has a version, and I'll bet there's a lot more on google. Oh, and I think (and a lot of people agree) that the VHT Special 6 is best low-price 5 watt harp amp right out of the box.
bluzman- 5F6H did mention a line out above. It is a good solution for gigging with a low-powered amp.
However, I think Tombo's main problem was hearing himself. When he says the other players drowned him out, that is from his point of view on stage. It happens frequently with small amps. Even if you are in the PA FOH speakers you may not be in the monitors. Getting properly set up in the short time you have at jams is dicey at best.
A line out is great; I use it frequently, and I carry a nice DI in my gear bag. I generally prefer to use the line out or DI (over mic'ing the amp), but when playing bigger clubs and festivals I will defer to the sound guy if he insists on using a mic.
The point is, it all may be too much of a hassle for your typical Sunday night blues jam. It's like billiards: you take the easy shots first. Tombo should try getting his amp up off the floor and pointing it more in the direction of his ears. That may solve the problem right there.
@HYVJ "i would be interested in your take on this. I've played through SJs and Harp Gear amps using my 545 Ultimate (lo-z with an IMT) and to my ear they sounded muddy. Nice depth of tone, good volume but limited definition--tonally somewhat indistinct or muddy...My conclusion, based on my experiences trying these amps and having read some of the promo info on the SJ and Harp Gear websites is that these amps are specifically designed for optimum performance with bullet mics. I've always assumed that's why they sound muddy when used with a high quality XLR style mic. Based on your considerable knowledge of amp design, is my assumption correct?" It might be more correct to say that "in the configuration that you played the amps, they were better suited to the bullets of the owners, rather than your mic". With a tube sub, to that of one with higher gain than the owners used with the bullet mic, you may get a sound with more "edge" with your lo-Z 545 with IMT. The real difference is what is going on after the amp's input in terms of preamp tube selection, rather than specific circuitry that "only works with bullets". The SJ's have a higher than normal impedance input better suited to Xtal/ceramics on the bright channel, but this still works with dynamic/CM/CR...the one you like the sound of best is the right one to use. In short there is no reason why these amps will not function as intended with a lo-Z PA mic & in-line IMT.
I am honestly not the best person to talk to about pedals, whilst I'll tinker all day and night getting what I want from a tube stage, my patience with pedals is virtually non-existant (I only ever use delay & if things get loud/out of control, I ditch it). If a pedal I try robs tone, I bin it (I deem this more important than the actual effect, as a wonderful effect that sets you way back in the mix is no help in a live situation). I will say though that virtually any device placed between mic & amp input will make some difference to the dry tone, so always compare any pedal against a mic plugged straight into the input - not just a pedal with the effect turned off.
I have a Lone Wolf Delay, as well as a DD3 and these are my current bench marks in this respect (& the only 2 delays I'll recommend, along with the DD2), the LW sounds less coloured, more natural compared to the DD3...but there is still a relatively subtle change in tone between the LW delay, with effect on or off, and mic straight in. True bypass would seem to be somewhat harder to achieve in reality, than we might be lead to believe. I like Randy Landry and he's certainly not trying to hoodwink anyone, he stands by his product, just like I said virtually anything added between mic & amp makes "some " difference.
A buffer whilst showing a marked change with Xtal & ceramic mics, still can affect the sound of a dynamic/CM/CR. It's worth noting that in the heyday of Xtal mics, op amp & FET buffers simply did not exist. The buffer sees a signal voltage & a source impedance, as neither of these are specific to XLR with IMT or unbalanced hi-z bullets, the buffer doesn't care what kind of mic it is within reason. Dual impedance mics are usually mics that bypass an internal IMT in lo-z mode & switch/wire in the internal IMT in hi-Z mode.
My preference would be to physically remove any effects that were not being used (impractical I know), or use a multi effect device. I have a Yamaha DG Stomp that has a range of effects, one input with 2 input gain modes. I don't know how easy this unit is to find second hand today. It's a fair size so I rarely took it out of the house...that and too many knobs to keep an eye on if it got knocked/messed about with. I am not recommending multi-effect units in general, just this one.
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2011 5:25 PM
@hvyj: i love your discussion above about what you use and why. you've clearly put a lot of thought into getting just the sound you want. i think part of what makes the endless "which amp is better?" threads fruitless is that they lack the context of what sound posters are going for. this was great.
@garry: I'm relieved to know someone found that post interesting. I sort of got carried away writing it and when i realized how long it was I thought no one was going to be interested enough to actually read it.
@5F6H:"My preference would be to physically remove any effects that were not being used (impractical I know)"
No, not impractical at all. There are true bypass looper pedals made which are small MECHANICAL switching pedals that will route the signal to the effect (or effects chain) or direct to amp. Since they are purely mechanical, they are true bypass and will bypass everything in the "loop" that's not. Keeley makes one and there are others which may be less expensive.
I agree with what 5F6H says, with a side note/question re: " Dual impedance mics are usually mics that bypass an internal IMT in lo-z mode & switch/wire in the internal IMT in hi-Z mode."
The only dual impedance mics I've ever encountered are made by Shure, the 545 being the best known but there are others. In every case both the high and low impedance outputs come from a set of secondary windings on a transformer, with the element being connected to the primary. I don't know of any mic where one impedance choice bypasses the internal transformer entirely - though that doesn't mean such mics don't exist. Curious to know which mic(s) you're referring to.
Greg: I have a philips EL 6031/00 with the two sets of wiring as described, and I believe that the electrovoice 630 has as well. ---------- Lucky Lester
