DanP
193 posts
Jul 30, 2011
1:39 PM
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I been playing a number of years and I never thought much about it. I was looking through the Harmonica for Dummies book a few days back and noticed it said always move the harmonica and not your head. But does it really matter? I discovered that I sometimes move my head, sometimes I move the the harp and sometimes I do both. With the lipping method I usually move my head especially when I jump 2 or more holes. When tongue blocking I usually keep my head still and move the harp. But I don't see that it makes much difference. What ever works best for the individual.
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2011 9:36 PM
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walterharp
667 posts
Jul 30, 2011
1:45 PM
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both for me too
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5F6H
801 posts
Jul 30, 2011
1:48 PM
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Why "either, or", what matters is the sound you make doing whatever you do. I agree do what works best.
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Tommy the Hat
168 posts
Jul 30, 2011
2:14 PM
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I'm kind of inexperienced at this but I do have my opinion. I've been reading David Barret and I also watched a few of his lessons. He said move the head. But then again, I read someone else (another well known player/teacher...I forget who) say not to move the head. I've also seen instruction on how to use your fingers or parts of your hand to aid the movement (not using the head). My deduction from all this? Doesn't matter; whatever works best for the individual player. I can't see science supporting either way.
But I will add my 2 cents about what I do and why. I do both! It depends mostly on who I'm playing for. For myself it doesn't matter. When I'm playing in front of a non harp player that I want to impress, I don't move my head and i try to not show movement of my hands. I want it to look like "wow...howz he doing that (or what is he doing, I see nothing moving)....hahahaha.
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Tommy
Bronx Mojo
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2011 2:15 PM
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HarmonicaMick
260 posts
Jul 30, 2011
2:19 PM
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The book I first learnt from described both ways, but prescribed neither. I don't like books that prescribe one way or the other of anything; I prefer books that outline the options, along with their pros and cons. In my view, most harp books are sadly lacking in that regard.
I chose to move the harp, not my head, the main reason being that it felt bloody horrible knowing that every time I warbled my brain was crashing around in my head and banging against my skull. If you'll forgive the pun, it did my head in.
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BronzeWailer
193 posts
Jul 30, 2011
3:09 PM
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I am agnostic on this as well, but I think moving the head may look more dramatic, especially when you are in front of an audience. Not a good idea perhaps when you are woodshedding in the car though.
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nacoran
4407 posts
Jul 30, 2011
3:10 PM
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I do a little of both, but I think probably 80% of my side to side motion is in my hands, with 15% more in the jaw and lips and tongue. That leaves 4% for the head. The last 1% is frictional losses. The formula looks something like this:
8H+ 1-1/2JLT = Motion Constant Squared
1
Where the left half of the equation can be represented by E, for energy used. When solved the equation looks like this:
E=MC2, which we all know is Einsteins famous theory.
Which all would be supported by a picture of Einstein playing harp, if only I could get this photoshop to look good. :(
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Nate
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Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2011 3:41 PM
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walterharp
668 posts
Jul 30, 2011
3:15 PM
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@nate you forgot to account for relative frictional losses with both methods :-)
but probably since my head is bigger, the acceleration of the mass is slower, so hand shakes are faster
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The Iceman
54 posts
Jul 30, 2011
3:23 PM
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I move both with the intent to move either as little as possible and get the desired result.
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The Iceman
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WinslowYerxa
28 posts
Jul 30, 2011
5:49 PM
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As the author of Harmonica For Dummies, let me give you the background for my remarks.
First, I DID NOT PRESCRIBE.
When discussing shakes (rapidly alternating two adjacent holes) on Page 172, I said this:
"Some players do shakes by holding the harp still and moving their heads from side to side. Other players do it by using their hands to move the harp. Moving the harp gives you more control and is less likely to give you neck pains or make you dizzy."
Both statements are objectively true. Your hands are smaller, weigh far less, and have more muscle control than your neck. And they are much closer to the harp, which is where the action is. And rapidly wagging your neck to rotate the weight of your head *can* make you dizzy and give you a neck ache.
That said, I do sometimes do a head shake. But I find I have much more control over the sound of a shake and can shade it all sorts of ways when I control motion with my hands.
Little Walter was probably the greatest master of subtle shading of shakes. And he is know to have expressed contempt for the head shake method.
Earlier in the book on Page 67, I describe - for absolute beginners - moving from hole to hole when playing a melody. I state: "When you move to another hole, the only things that move are your hand sliding the harmonica a tiny amount to the left or right. Your lips stay put and form a gliding surface." I don't even mention the head.
I wrote this because many beginners immediately form bad habits of moving anything BUT the harmonica, even though the harp is the easiest thing to move. They contort their lips, take the harmonica out of their mouths between notes, break breath when they don't need to and, yes, move their heads needlessly. The most easy and efficient way to changes holes is to simply slide the harp.
Again, playing at a more advanced level and making wide leaps, moving the head and rotating the harp can both be helpful. But the best habit to form at the early stage for the simplest moves is to use what is most efficient, doesn't disrupt the flow of breath, and keeps the harp in your mouth, which is just sliding the harp right or left.
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2011 6:01 PM
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DanP
194 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:10 PM
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Thank you Mr. Yerxa for clearing that up. On doing shakes and warbles I always move the harp because shaking my head rapidly gives me a headache. That's a great book that I recommend for players of all levels. I've learned a lot from it and I think it has improved my playing. I confess that I didn't read much of the first 5 chapters, I only skimmed through the first 80 pages or so because the first few chapters seemed directed at the folks who are just starting out and I wasn't a beginner when I bought the book. If I had read it through I would have understood what you were getting at. I especialy like the sections on music theory and how it applies to the harmonica. The section on overblows is pretty complex and I'm still working on that.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2011 7:29 PM
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eharp
1384 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:17 PM
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you gotta be holding that headshake an awfully long time to get dizzy!!
lol
if you think about it, neck muscles work in conjunction with each other, right? if you turn your head, both the left and right side work in tandem and have been doing so for all of your life. since the movement is so minimal, there really shouldnt be any adverse effects.
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Greg Heumann
1196 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:29 PM
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For me it depends a lot on if you're if you're holding a mic or not. Holding a mic - gotta move my head. Not holding a mic - can get a really fast shake with one hand.....
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/Greg
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2chops
14 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:33 PM
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When driving, absolutely hands / harp only. Otherwise it's mostly hands with a little bit of head swish.
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sorin
305 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:34 PM
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I can tell right away what kind of shakes a player uses , when I listen to a recording , they just sound different .There's a couple of well known older players that do some hand shakes that sound plain bad, at least for my taste.
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WinslowYerxa
29 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:38 PM
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Let me just say that you should do whatever works and not feel like you're cheating - one of my favorite sayings is, "Gold is where you find it."
But if you come to me for a lesson, I'm going to be like the golf pro who makes all sorts of tiny corrections to your swing to give you more power and control.
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2011 8:58 PM
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Matzen
202 posts
Jul 30, 2011
6:58 PM
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Little Walter said that head shakes gave him a headache!
I shake both my head and harp tho!
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HarveyHarp
288 posts
Jul 30, 2011
7:28 PM
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In the late 80s I had cataract surgery, and I was friends with the Doctor. He came to see me at a gig sometime later, and watched me play. When I did trills, I move my head. Later, he told me that if I kept doing that, I could possible detach my retina. I have moved the harp ever since
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HarveyHarp
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Matzen
203 posts
Jul 30, 2011
7:51 PM
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@HarveyHarp: Wow... I've never heard anything like that before!
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gene
836 posts
Jul 30, 2011
8:01 PM
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If you've ever had little kids, the head shake should come naturally.
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eharp
1385 posts
Jul 30, 2011
8:35 PM
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sugar ray leanord took a beating, and gave, for years against tommy hearns, roberto duran and marvin haglar to detach a retina. that's gotta be one violent headshake, harvey.
i wonder if it matters whether your eyes are closed?
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boris_plotnikov
581 posts
Jul 31, 2011
12:48 AM
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I move both hands and head and last year after lesson with Howard Levy I started moving jaw in Brendan Power's style.
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Big Daddy Ray
63 posts
Jul 31, 2011
1:36 AM
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Boris the lower jaw movement is what I prefer. I remember writing on a post on HS about seeing someone else do that and then I tried it and it worked perfectly.
I actually think it was you who replied telling me about Brendon doing the same thing.
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Andrew
1401 posts
Jul 31, 2011
4:54 AM
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I move the harp. I'm afraid of my brain rattling around in my skull like a pea in a tin can.
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Andrew.
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Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
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HarmonicaMick
261 posts
Jul 31, 2011
5:20 AM
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@ WinslowYerxa:
I apologise.
Although the inference does clearly make it appear that I'm writing about your book, I am, in fact, making a generalisation about many harp methods I've come across. The details of that view would be the subject of another - if somewhat contentious - thread, so I'll say no more about that here.
Without referring to your book - which I own, have recommended to others, and think is a fine book - I think that the quotation used by the original poster - "... always move the harmonica and not your head." - is a reference on how to move the harp in general, and not a specific instruction on how to play warbles. If the book were not currently inaccessible without moving a load of stuff first then I would have checked before posting.
Anyway, the implication on my part was careless, and I apologise; your book just happened to be in the firing line when the subject came up, and the quotation used, if I remember correctly, has nothing to do with playing warbles. EDIT: Reading your post properly and without skimming through it I can see that is, indeed, the case.
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Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2011 6:12 AM
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shanester
404 posts
Jul 31, 2011
8:20 AM
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I do a combo of head and hand.
Another factor consider is how sauced you are when you play, the more you've had to drink, the less you are going to want to headshake...;-)
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
Shane's Cloud
1shanester
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lumpy wafflesquirt
390 posts
Jul 31, 2011
10:37 AM
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I might look into the Harp for dummies book. I have seen it advertised but was put off by the title thinking it was going to be aimed at complete beginners. From comments here it would seem that I am wrong.
Perhaps I'll put it on my Christmas list.
:^)
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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nacoran
4408 posts
Jul 31, 2011
10:56 AM
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Do head shakes on the 1 and 3 with the foot tap. Use your hands for everything else. It helps you keep the beat. :)
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Nate
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HarmonicaMick
262 posts
Jul 31, 2011
11:15 AM
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@ lumpy: like most harp books, it has all the beginner stuff, but it goes far deeper than that. It covers just about every topic imaginable. I think it's about 300 pages in length, but it's not written in such a way that you need to read them all.
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gene
837 posts
Jul 31, 2011
11:24 AM
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That lower jaw thing does NOTHING for me. I've seen a couple of people say to do that and I tried, but nothing happens at all...except my jaw wiggles back and forth while my lips stay right there on the same hole.
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hvyj
1632 posts
Jul 31, 2011
11:59 AM
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I generally use my hands to move the harp. i agree with Winslow--I think i have more control using my hands. I also think I can maintain more evenness of tone and attack as i come out of the shake if I am using my hands rather than shaking my head. But i will occasionally move my head a little.
As far as the lower jaw thing goes, it does work, but it alters the oral resonance chamber a little when you do it. I like to keep a pretty consistent oral resonance chamber for evenness of tone, and i don't think the lower jaw technique is significantly faster than pivoting the harp which is what i originally learned to do.
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nacoran
4413 posts
Jul 31, 2011
2:32 PM
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Of course, as a rack player, Einstein mostly had to shake his head.
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Nate
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florida-trader
33 posts
Aug 01, 2011
4:50 AM
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Does anybody else do this?
First of all, I hold the harp in my right hand. I know most hold in in the left but when I started playing nearly 40 years ago, nobody told me how to hold it and since I am right handed I naturally went to the right hand. That said, I have found that if I use the pad just below my left index finger (almost the crotch between the thumb and index finger) as a "stop", I can use my right hand to rapidly slide the harp back and forth across two holes by banging the harp against my left hand. It takes the issue of sliding too far to the left out of the picture and now I only have to worry about how far to the right I slide.
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hvyj
1633 posts
Aug 01, 2011
5:45 AM
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Well, FWIW, I like to keep a consistent cup (as well as a consistent oral resonance chamber) in order to maintain a certain evenness of tone. So I make a conscious effort NOT to alter the position of my hands on the harp and mic when move the harp to shake.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2011 9:22 AM
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harpdude61
939 posts
Aug 01, 2011
6:59 AM
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I move my hands and head both to minimize the total movement...plus you can go faster this way.
WHen I do a warble, the lips never slide on the harp. You can easily switch holes with the airflow with very little movement. Of course this take the big open mouth and throat embrochure.
This technique also makes it easy to do a half warble. That is when one of the notes stays constant and the note on either side cuts in and out.
Also great for what I call a 3 hole warble....the center note stays constant, while you alternate between the two holes on either side.
I have used a split warble that sounds pretty cool in 3rd position...warbling between 5/8 draw and 6/9 draw. Works well because all notes used are in the 3rd posiiton minor scale and the blues scale. Must be very loose and open to make this one sound clean.
Working on a warble between 6 ob and 7 blow...not quite there yet but getting better.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2011 9:19 AM
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harpdude61
940 posts
Aug 01, 2011
7:03 AM
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One more...try the blow warble on holes 8 and 9 in first position blues. Fun to blow bend this warble too.
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WinslowYerxa
34 posts
Aug 01, 2011
8:01 AM
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Interesting post by harpdude61 on hand movement in a warble.
I hold left-handed but use my right hand to drive the warble. (Early on I did hold right handed but eventually settled on the left.)
Right hand pushes or nudges the harp, the resistance of the left hand springs it back.
Billy Branch is another player who makes good use of the 3-hole warble.
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Greyowlphotoart
714 posts
Aug 01, 2011
10:28 AM
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@Winslow I use the exact same method as I feel I have more control and speed this way. If I am amplified and cupping a mike I feel a little more cramped with both hands holding the harp although it is still the right hand contolling the warble. I have tried the head shake but my timing is out of whack.
BTW I clicked on your username and onto your website and you have some real nice work there on the cd samples.
Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2011 10:29 AM
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LittleBubba
78 posts
Aug 01, 2011
10:55 AM
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I've alway used just my hands until I discovered the Danelectro Pastrami on Rye warble pedal with the slide switch for incorporating bent notes. :)
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nacoran
4417 posts
Aug 01, 2011
12:26 PM
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It's not head or hand movement, but I've noticed when I have a really tight cup and I go to do a hand wah I get better, faster, stronger, more controllable results moving the harmonica hand than the other hand.
Florida, I sort of do what you are describing, but to stop me from sliding too far up (playing it in 'normal' right handed fashion. I also sometimes slam my free hand against the end of the harp to get really quick one note slides down that pop right back.
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eharp
1388 posts
Aug 01, 2011
4:12 PM
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i do that sometimes, florida.
sometimes i will also see-saw the harp, as madcat does.
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DanP
195 posts
Aug 02, 2011
4:32 PM
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Jerry Pornoy, in his Blues Harmonica Masterclass says always move your head when using warbles. There seems to be disagreement among players and teachers on this but that's the way the of harmonica world.
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Rubes
375 posts
Aug 02, 2011
4:54 PM
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Bits of both for me though probably more head shake.
I'm also working on the jaw thing.....(could we link this maybe to the sexuality thread?) :~}
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HarmonicaMick
269 posts
Aug 02, 2011
4:58 PM
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@ DanP:
You've highlighted the point I was trying to make when I banged on about some books/methods prescribing a certain way of doing things. To the uninitiated, it might well seem as though that is the correct and, ultimately, only way of doing this or that technique, and that can waste an awful lot of time and damage a person's progress.
As a former piano teacher myself I think it's a very bad way of teaching. And I don't care who's doing the teaching. When teaching an instrument - any instrument - aside from pointing out the actual stuff that relates to music, your most important job is to try and understand the mechanics of playing the instrument and impart that knowledge as best as you can. Without the mechanics, the student can't move on to their full potential. That is not an easy thing to do; the job is next to impossible if the only way you can teach is your own way, because, for whatever reason, not everyone will feel comfortable doing it your way.
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Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2011 5:07 PM
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LittleBubba
79 posts
Aug 03, 2011
1:51 PM
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It's a little bit like sports: there have been professional football quarterbacks who've had very unconventional throwing motions, and yet they've thrived, and there have been professional baseball pitchers who have succeeded with poor mechanics. It's hard to say if they would've been able to perform as well with "better" fundamental mechanics.
There's limits though; you can't play a brass instrument by wrapping your lips around the mouthpiece. :)
The warble's generally not that tough to pull off with varying methods.
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Kyzer Sosa
994 posts
Aug 03, 2011
2:10 PM
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I stay still, and the stage moves...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
"Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
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Blueharper
186 posts
Aug 03, 2011
2:55 PM
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OK,Sosa,I really am LOL!!
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bluemoose
584 posts
Aug 03, 2011
3:19 PM
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...and of course the corollary is do you tongue block or lip purse your warbles?
I feel it sounds better and I have move control tongue blocking but I can only bend the warble down with lip pursing. I usually head shake, but that may just explain my loose brain issues.
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HarmonicaMick
270 posts
Aug 03, 2011
3:28 PM
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@ LittleBubba: you're right, of course, there is only a limited number of ways that you can play this or that technique. But, the point I was trying to make - and, through experience, believe as much as I believe anything - is that a good teacher will describe the options, along with their respective pros and cons. A bad teacher will just pass off the way that they know how to do something, with the very narrow perspective that confers the same experience that they have of using that technique on everyone else.
Let me give you one concrete, irrefutable example; irrefutable, that is, from my own personal experience. Quite a number of harp methods teach that in order to form a seal at the back of the harp, you should place the middle joint of your right index finger on the right side of the harp. They don't point out that for some people that will simply not be possible. If, like me, your hands are not big enough to make a seal by that method without causing huge amounts of discomfort in the back of the cupping hand then the method has only taught you one thing, namely: that particular method doesn't work for you. Do you see my point?
Similar debates about technique are rife amongst other instrumentalists: with piano, flat fingers or curved fingers; with guitar, thumb around the neck or behind the neck. In each case, neither method is right nor wrong. But the good teacher will know the difference and guide their student to the best way to utilise what they have to play the music that they want to play.
As for the warble, which, after all, is the subject of this thread, I can't say that for me it's not tough to pull off. It may well be the case that you are more naturally gifted than I am. A sickening number of people are. But, I have never found that controlling a warble, particularly at slower tempi, is an easy thing to do. Sure, in a fast number, you can just warble away and all the punters will think it sounds great. However, the better players will be able to control it at a slower tempo so that the swoops, which are played on the beat, will actually be bang on the beat. It's not the hardest thing on earth, but it does take some practice to get it spot on, and a good teacher to make you aware of it.
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LittleBubba
80 posts
Aug 03, 2011
3:46 PM
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Your points are valid Mick, and I didn't mean to dis good fundamental teaching. I value the fundamentals I was taught in school band. And, while warbling at any speed has been easy for me, there are a host of other techniques that I don't pull off so easily. I don't think that needs to relate to overall ability level, just ability to handle certain skill sets.
BTW, I saw a trumpeter on CMT (country cable) who set his embrochure on the right side of his mouth, like you would if you were doin' the schtick where you play two brass instruments at once.
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