Harmonica tone has recently been discussed on the Forum and I thought it might be fun and interesting to compare 2 models each from Hohner and Suzuki.
I have played 4 segments from each harp to compare the tone but haven't stated on the vid which model I am playing. Although this information is revealed on the show more click below the vid when viewed on Youtube
The models in question in no particular order are the
Suzuki Manji - Suzuki Promaster 350 Hohner Special 20 Hohner Marine Band
The playing samples are found at these time intervals on the vid
Harp 1 @ 37secs to 1 min 11 Harp 2 @ 1 min 14 to 1 min 48 Harp 3 @ 1 min 49 to 2 min 26 Harp 4 @ 2 min 27 to 3 min 01
It would be interesting to know how you view the tone of each harp before and after knowing the model, notwithstanding any deficiencies I have in getting the best out of each harp.
I only have experience with one of those, so I listened to determine which sounded most like mine. I chose correctly, but to be honest, though I could hear a difference in all of them, I think the difference is too slight to really matter. I guess as far as tone goes, a harp is a harp is a harp....Generally. 'Cuz then there's the Suzuki Hammond and a few other exceptions.
Got them all correct but I only own the Manji so I basically listened for that sound and what was close to it and what sounded totally different. I had no idea which one was the Special 20 and Marine Band, I was just lucky with those two.
To my ear, there is a high end distortion or sibilance in the recording or amplification set up that masks the high end timbre of the respective instruments which makes them more difficult to identify.
Love this idea. You actually beat me to it byu a couple of days. I was going to try to do something over the weekend to prove that there is no difference in sound when you change comb material. This isnt exactly what I was going to do, because I was going to change combs and use the same reed plates and covers, but it does prove an even larger point. The point is that its up to the player and not the harp if you buy a quality instrument. Next time someone asks what kind of harp to get or what kind of comb the answer should be "whatver you are comfortable playing". Yes there are subtle differences but you sound GREAT playing each one and I am glad someone had the balls to do this. Great job Greyowl! This video should be posted on the front page of this site. oh yeah.... I had the first two backwards and got the last 2 right.
Thanks, It's certainly interesting guys but not conclusive of course. You would have to be in the room with the player listening to the acoustic unamplified sound. Even then I reckon a lot of us would be hard pressed to accurately identify even a range of our favourite harps.
I would have liked to add a GM to the mix but haven't got one in Bb(: as these harps to my ears anyway have a unique sound. I think it's important to stick to one key on these type of tests as each key has a different timbre.
I'll have to get my wife to play back these 4 vid samples to me at random and see how I get on:)
One thing I can say for certain is they sure do feel and play differently. I found it tricky switching straight from one harp to another. The combs and covers and hole spacings feel different and also the amount of breath you need to use on each harp.
Cheers Ridge, On reflection it may have been best to ditch the delay. Even then I am at the mercy of my small 5w guitar amp patched into my old analogue 4 track recorder into a decidedly average PC with a feeble on-chip sound.
Surely the best way to detect any tonal variations within brands/models of harps, would be by playing the harps acoustically without any effects and uncupped? That way the pure sound of the harp is captured.
The effects make no difference. It is changing the sound of each one the same amount. He picks up each harp and plays it though the same mic system. I think some people think effects do all the work, but they do not. The most important thing is the sound you are sending to them.
To be frank, it doesn't matter what you capture the audio on, if you are then going to upload it to youtube which compresses the sh*t out of it.
Record the sound samples as 24bit 48kHz uncompressed wav files: clean ,no fx or amp (other than the cleanest preamp you can find). Post them in the same format that you record them in. If there is any difference in the tones, it'll be at the sparkly top end and that is precisely where lossy compression codecs like AAC and mp3 strip out data.
You sound awesome on all of 'em! For the record, personally, I can't distinguish between any of them (there I said it - let the insults fly), well other than the fact that you tear it up on all of 'em.
I'm probably considered an advanced beginner. As for my own harp choice...right at the very beginning I did a little research and the most sensisible thing I read was to just make sure your first harp wasn't a toy. The writer (might have been D. Barrett not sure) then went on to list a bunch of reasonably priced harps saying anyone of these would be fine. I ruled out the Marine Band (even though it's our fearless leader's harp of choice), because I figured I'd have enough on my hands without worrying about the comb swelling. Picked out the Special 20 and that's what I've stuck with.
I usually just ignore the various "which harp" threads, but when I saw Tone Test in the thread title by "the Owl" well shit, you KNOW I'm tuning in for that.
You've just proved to me the beliefs I intuitively held, which is that at least for now, and maybe the forseeable future, I can continue to ignore the "which harp" discussions.
You mentioned you've gapped them yourself, I'm curious to know more about this. I've yet to work on any of my harps. As it turns out, I'm quite a neophyte in the fine mechanical skills area as well. Coupled with no tools or space and the loathsome fear of messing up any working harps, I haven't so much as taken a cover off. The lack of discretionary cash precludes me from paying someone to do it for me right now.
Lastly, someone in another thread posted that you need to stop making video's and get out and play. I believe the word masturbation came up.
I think this was an awesome vid, and reinforces your immense value to this forum.
Don't you dare stop.....or I'll be forced to hunt you down and poke you with the soft cushions, while making you sit in the comfy chair!!!
While I agree that playing the harp acoustically under as consistent as means as possible, I think this totally illustrates a set of points unique to many of us.
In otherwords, I play out through an amp or at least a PA (whether through a harp mic or a vocal mic) 99% of the time. While I may or may not play acoustically at home, when it comes to performance, I do not.
Really, all that matters is your perception of what instrument is best for you. However, I contend that well over 80% of the time, the listening audience, especially when in actual attendance, can't tell the difference.
It doesn't really matter if comb material or covers or whatever make a difference. If you perceive them too, then they do. I do think, though, it is easier to support the idea that gear doesn't matter when you hear through the ears of the audience.
What is way hard is keeping the variables limited. I try to compensate for that by using a looper when sharing gear clips as that signal can be repeated without much change. What is going into the rig stays constant. I can't think of a way, that doesn't involve a machine anyways, of playing two harps the exact same to illustrate a point. Even when trying to play the same lick, things are different.
Does the margin of error add up to anything? Probably not, but it is there.
I love this post, Grey Owl, because you are sharing evidence for people to think about rather than just sharing a story or opinion. Kudos to you!
Mr VLUN You have saved me some time here as my alternative recording method would have been sent through the Youtube mincer.
You make a good point but then again there will be someone asking what mic was used and what recording equipment - that will make a big difference.
As I said above 'It's certainly interesting guys but not conclusive of course. You would have to be in the room with the player listening to the acoustic unamplified sound.' and even then everyone's hearing is different, so you would then have to analyse the sound on specialised frequency detection equipment and that is where it loses its fun:)
EDIT to Harpninja whose post came through when I was writing this, good points well made
True and also relating to my point. Some mics might not be sensitive enough in the high frequencies (we are talking about harmonic overtones here - so pretty high) to capture the high sparkle that really would account for tone differences.
I don't want to sound too hard on you though... great idea and your playing was great. You can call it Stone Fox Chase as much as you like, but it'll always bee the Old Grey Whistle Test to me!
If we were sat in the room with you, I bet there would be fewer "I couldn't detect any difference" responses.
I also couldn't tell the difference. What I thought was especially great about this demo was that you played the same thing for each harp. So often when people do comparisons they don't play the same so it is very difficult to make a comparison. You compared apples with apples not pears :^)
top marks
---------- "Come on Brackett let's get changed"
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 10:32 AM
@MrVLUN Yes, I must admit it does sound different in the room but the differences are closer than you might think. I have just recorded again with my smartphone but the results were worse, no discernable difference at all prabably due to the fact it can't handle the high frequencies.
And Stone Fox Chase ( aka Old Grey Whistle Test )with whispering Bob Harris, those were the days. It's a pity we've lost such an a great music TV Prog. Later with Jools ain't bad at times but it's not the same.
@Lumpy Thanks man, the difference in tone is not as noticeable on the vid although I think the Special 20 sounded quite nice.
EDIT btw I have listened to my original pre Youtube .wmv file and the differences are definitely more noticeable.
That was a good exercise! I just waited until I thought I heard the Marine Band, which I did correctly guess as the last one. That comes from listening to so many of AG's lessons on my laptop. I could not identify the first three. ----------
Lol. That is legit. It was tough between 2 and 3, but I liked 4 the most and 3 seemed to be a nice compromise between warm and bright. 1 was too bright and 2 was kinda dark. Where are the answers listed? ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I think you might like your choice Mike. You have to click on the bottom right of vid to view the vid in youtube page then click show more which is below vid and start of description. ----------
Great post GOPA - I had the Hohners in the right spots but picked the Manji first and the PM third...but I have never played either of them so I did OK. ----------
I couldn't pin them down, but I narrowed the ET down to one of 2 harps. I liked the Promaster and MB better on the single note parts and the SP20 and Manji better on the chords. If you'd asked me before hand which two I expected to be brighter I would have been right on that, although I wouldn't have been able to pick which one was which.
Now I'm trying to think which harps I have two of. I think I've got A's in Blues Harp, SP20 and Piedmont. I've got a Bb Lee Oskar and a Piedmont. E's I've got in Piedmont and Blues Harp... C's, hmm, Lee Oskar, Piedmont, Bluesband, Pocket Pal, and one Frankenharp... My microphone is being a pain in the butt though. :(
As a side issue to this topic, I was wondering what you felt about the 'tongue slaps' on the vid. I have been working on an alternative method and would be interested in your feedback. Ta ----------
