jonlaing
293 posts
Jul 26, 2011
12:47 PM
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So I've been playing Suzukis (mostly Promasters) for about a year straight now, and I've noticed that they were a little brighter, but it didn't bother me too much until I got to compare it to a well set up GM. Now the brightness kind of bothers me (even with my Hammond), and I was wondering why they're so bright. Is it the bronze-phosphor reeds? Is it the tight tolerances? Is it the aluminum comb?
I'm just wondering if there is a way to darken the tone closer to that of a Hohner (I know someone is going to suggest that I start just playing Hohners, but I really like way Suzukis play). Would swapping out the aluminum comb for a dymonwood comb help?
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tookatooka
2390 posts
Jul 26, 2011
1:05 PM
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Would it be possible to line the inside of the coverplates with a sound absorbing material like plastic electrical insulating tape to absorb some of the brightness.
I too was a Suzuki fan and moved over to Hohner Sp20's for the same reason plus I wanted better chordal sounds which the Sp20 provided.
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HarpMan Freeman
171 posts
Jul 26, 2011
1:20 PM
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When I compare the two, I hear a similar result, but I see it the other way around. I find that the GM is just quite with not much punch. I find the suzuki's having more power and presence. I can see how that could be considered "Bright" but I would say it just has more power.
Don't get me wrong. GM is a great harp and I enjoy it's playability and sound. I have 4 that I've half valved and play often.
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 1:45 PM
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Blues13
128 posts
Jul 26, 2011
1:34 PM
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I have a C Bluesmaster that I wasn't playing so I opened the back to see what diference it would make. Now it's really brighter, louder and sounds better, I still don't like the tuning for chord playing and the protruding comb but I play it more often now. I think that the bronze-phosphor might have something to to with it. I think I read somewhere that metal comb gives a brighter sound.
Martin
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Isaac Asimov
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Greyowlphotoart
688 posts
Jul 26, 2011
2:25 PM
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I have Harpmasters with plastic combs and they are great and not too expensive. They are more mellow than my other Suzukis and have a creamy, crackly clear tone and are easy to play.
My Promasters valved and unvalved do have a bright presence and kind of ringing tone which is nice but different.
My Hammond has the same qualities but is darker in tone.
My GM's are very nice too but have a totally different sound. They have a powerful presence but have a kind of 'tin box' tone which I really like and they feel looser to play.
The Suzukis do appear to have tighter tolerances which could make them feel a little less free and easy to play and accentuate the brightness produced by the aluminium comb and stainless steel covers. I would think the dymonwood comb would produce a more mellow tone.
The bottom line is I like all my harps MB's and SP20's included as they all offer something slightly different in tone and playability.
If you want a Suzuki with a less bright tone I would highly recommend the Harpmaster, it's very bluesy.
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Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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hvyj
1615 posts
Jul 26, 2011
2:31 PM
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I do not find Hammonds to be brighter than GMs, except maybe in the really high keys (F, F# and High G).
I do think ProMasters are extremely bright and I won't use them for performance for that reason. But Hammonds have a significantly darker tone to my ear that is darker than either Promasters or GM.
I think the tone of the PMs is unbearably bright, especially when amplified, but Hammonds have a nice, dark warm tone. To my ear GMs are generally somewhere between the two. GMs are the only Hohner harps I will play. I love my Hammonds,though.
Putting Micropore (3M Surgical Tape) inside the covers will dampen the brightness. Micropore will stay put even if it gets wet. But personally I don't like how ProMasters sound with Micropore. I've often wondered what Dymondwood (composite) combs would do to the tone of a Suzuki, but I've never actually tried one.
Suzukis do have tighter tolerances than Hohners and have superior compression (are more airtight).
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 2:44 PM
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nacoran
4376 posts
Jul 26, 2011
3:02 PM
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Cover material is interesting. I have an old set of Piedmonts I got when I first started out. They are actually pretty warm sounding between their tight back and plastic combs. I have two two toned harps, half SP20 and half Piedmont covers. I don't think I like the combination of one metal cover and one plastic, but I actually don't mind them if you put both covers on a SP20. It will not be real loud though, and I'm not sure whether the terrible taste new Piedmonts have is from the comb or the covers. (My guess is it's the gold paint they use for lettering because that wears off at about the same rate as the taste and is gone within a couple days).
If someone wanted to do a controlled experiment on how covers shape the sound I know without too much work you could try Piedmont covers, SP20 covers (closed), SP20 covers (opened up) and maybe open and closed MB covers all on the same comb and reeds. Florida-Trader was commenting on the possibility of powder coating metal combs too. At least it could be useful for figuring out the general underlying principals.
I'm not as sure with other brands which covers will swap.
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RT123
173 posts
Jul 26, 2011
4:05 PM
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It's not the comb. This has been researched by many including myself. The comb material has NO effect on the sound. I have tried it on bluesmasters, promasters and manjis and there is no change in sound, tone, or brightness. I have use the plastic, composite, metal, and even a custom wood comb. No difference at all. If you don't believe me try it yourself and you will see. Covers and reed marterial make a huge difference.
For this reason I have no idea why people customize marine band combs. They spend endless hours sealing, sanding, cleaning and whatever else when they should throw out the crap comb and replace it with a modern material.
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 4:08 PM
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Todd Parrott
585 posts
Jul 26, 2011
4:28 PM
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I doubt the metal comb makes much difference, as I have GM's on metal combs and notice virtually no difference in tone, but of course comb material is debatable.
Could it perhaps be the reed profiles? Perhaps the shorter reed profiles like those of the Promaster and the Hammond play a part in the tone? Not sure if the reed profiles alone are the cause.... could it also be the tighter tolerances as Greyowlphotoart mentioned?
I know that the old pre-MS Meisterklasses I have in F, which are also on aluminum combs, are not as bright as the Hammond I have in F.
And what about the Manji, Fabulous and Firebreath which have different profiles? Are they bright too?
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RT123
174 posts
Jul 26, 2011
4:38 PM
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My point was to show if you take the same reedplates and covers and put then on a wood, plastic, metal, or any other material it will sound the same.
Todd is probably right about reed profiles. I can't comment on comparing Suzuki to hohner, but my long slot suzukis are a little more mellow than the short slot models.
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hvyj
1616 posts
Jul 26, 2011
5:34 PM
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@ToddParrott: The Fabulous is pretty bright probably due to extremely tight tolerances. The Firebreath is slightly brighter than the Hammond but not as bright as the ProMaster, and does not have quite as much volume as the Hammond. The Manji sounds like a Marine band to me and i don't like it since i don't like Marine Bands.
Now, from what I'm reading, some posters may be saying that the Hammond is bright because it has more volume and presence than some of the other harps. But I don't agree that it is TONALLY brighter. The way to compare tone, IMHO, is to play each harp into a cupped mic hooked up to a relatively clean sounding amp. This will even out the differences in volume and emphasize the actual tone of the instrument. But I'm pretty much an electric player, so that's all i really care about anyway.
In general, I think Suzukis have a more focused tone and Hohners have a more open tone. IMHO Hohners sound more "harmonicaish."
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 5:39 PM
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Bart Leczycki
36 posts
Jul 26, 2011
5:36 PM
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Hi, I think the bigger part of the harmonica sound (not musician) is from covers (profile, cubature, holes by sides, open/closed back). I suppose it's about 60% of sound of our instruments.
Take a look at the "bright" harmonicas: Marine Band or Manji. If we close holes on sides cover, the sound will be darker. When we close back of the covers - the same effect. When we make a flat covers profile - we cut rich and fat freqs.
I prepared many basic experiments with Seydel 1847, Favorite and Session parts.
I think reeds give 20% and comb 20% different of the harmonica sound.
BUT the most important element is the PLAYER, we can't forget about it :o)
BTW I played on many Suzuki models, I like Harpmasters, but the reeds are not durable for my taste. Anyway it's nice, not expensive harp with warm sound.
All the best
==============================
www.myspace.com/bleczycki
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2011 12:17 AM
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hvyj
1617 posts
Jul 26, 2011
5:45 PM
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@Bart: yes, I agree that in general unvented full length covers produce darker tone. But, on the other hand, ProMasters and MS Meisterklasse are pretty bright, but with a different sort of tone than the harps that have vented covers like the MB and Manji.
Personally, I've never tried any of the the lower end Suzukis (Harpmasters, Bluesmasters, Folkmasters).
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Todd Parrott
587 posts
Jul 26, 2011
5:59 PM
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@RT123 - Yes, I understood what you were saying... I made my post but forgot to press submit, and then I saw yours and mine. I agree with you.
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barbequebob
1697 posts
Jul 27, 2011
7:51 AM
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Most Asian made harps including the Suzuki, with the exception of the Manji and the Fabulous, use short slot reeds, and they do tend to be brighter sounding. Tighter slot tolerances, which makes harps play louder, also will have a corresponding increase in brightness (and the only real way to combat that is to use LESS breath force), plus also the thinner the cover plate, the brighter the tone will be as well as the louder the instrument will sound.
I also agree that the player is important and that's a huge wild card that few take into account for and it's very important indeed.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
1619 posts
Jul 27, 2011
9:18 AM
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"the thinner the cover plate, the brighter the tone will be as well as the louder the instrument will sound."
I've heard many knowledgeable people say this. BUT the brightest sounding harps I've ever played are the Suzuki ProMaster and the MS Meisterklasse each of which has chrome plated covers which are the thickest and heaviest covers I've seen.
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Greyowlphotoart
694 posts
Jul 27, 2011
11:01 AM
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@Hvyi
I remember reading somewhere on the Forum about putting SP20 Cover Plates on the Promaster.
I have just tried this and the results are interesting.
You need to use the Sp20 plates and their nuts and bolts and it's a perfect fit.
To my ears I would have to agree with your assessment that thicker covers produce brighter and louder tone.
With the SP20's plates fitted to the promaster there is a noticeable difference. The tone becomes much less bright and more mellow, more Sp 20 like in fact but a bit harsher verging towards your favourite MB's! Putting the harp back together with it's proper cover plates, the promaster produced this bright, ringing tone again.
If you have any PM's/SP20's It's worth checking out
Just for the heck of it I tried out the same key (Bb) on a Manji and MB with their original covers.
The Manji is ridiculously loud, quite harsh and it's a bit full on for my taste.
MB Much nicer its got that edgy, raspy tone without being right in your face like the Manji.
(I'm going to try the SP20 plates on the Manji and see if it tames the beast.)
Summary
Manji - Impossibly bright (not ringing in tone) and harsh
Promaster OOTB. Very bright, quite loud, ringing tone.
Promaster with SP plates - More mellow, much nicer but still with more edge that a SP20.
MB Edgy, Raspy very distinctive tone, hard to put your finger on.
Special 20 More mellow than all the rest but still a nice harp with a little edge.
I won't buy another Manji or Promaster (although I do like my Valved Promaster in C)
I like my one and only Hammond, it's much more Mellow than the Promaster.
In fact I think I'll swap the cover plates over on the Hammond and Promaster and see how it affect both harps.
IMO The cover plates do make a difference to tone.
Would like to know if anyone else has tried this and what you think.
Grey Owl YouTube
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hvyj
1620 posts
Jul 27, 2011
4:10 PM
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@Greyowlphotoart: Interesting info. You know, i don't really mess around with a lot of different brands and models of harps so much anymore. As far as OOB harps are concerned, I'm pretty much satisfied with my Suzuki Hammonds. After discovering Suzukis, I find OOB Hohners just don't have comparable compression and response and I don't like the tone of Lee Oskars which are decent harps in most other respects. Never tried a Seydel.
i think Suzuki Hammonds are by far the best OOB harps I've ever played. So I just stick with what i like. Now, I don't like the Marine Band sound at all, nor is there anything else appealing to me about MBs, so those who find the MB sound appealing may not share my enthusiasm for Hammonds since they have a very different sound from MBs.
I do like the ergonomics of GMs. My custom harps have GM covers and reeplates and I think the size and shape of GMs make them the easiest harp to handle in a performance situation. Extremely comfortable.
I've developed a strong preference for ET harps. Since i play in multiple positions, and most of my playing is with other musicians i just find that for the way i play I sound much more in tune with the rest of the band playing ET. So that's a big influence on my choice of harps.
What sounds good sitting around home playing and what sounds good playing in ensemble situation at a live venue with other amplified instruments are often not the same thing. I'm an electric player and I have a certain sound I'm after that I want to be able to produce when i play out with others. Hammonds allow me to do that and so do my custom GMs (although i actually prefer the TONE of the Hammonds). But everyone's preferences and objectives are different.
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2011 4:17 PM
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barbequebob
1698 posts
Jul 28, 2011
9:56 AM
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Hvyj --- Any chrome plating either on the cover plates or on the reed plates (with the reed plates, also nickel/German Silver as well) will add to the brightness as well. Seydel 1847 cover plates are stainless steel, but they're the thickest and heaviest covers I've evern run across, even thicker than the two you've mentioned and they do darken the tone, and the 1847 Silver is much brighter because of the German Silver plating on the reed plates.
About 10 years ago, I was on the phone with Kevin McGowan of the now defunct Kevin's Harps and he mentioned that he had a set of custom cover plates made for the Hohner MS series by Joe Filisko. I already had an MS set up using BR covers, CH reed plates, with a fully sealed maple comb from Dave Lavoie that I liked, so I had him send me them.
When I got them, I noticed that they were much more open in the back than the BR's are, the bottom cover plate shaped in a way (as Filisko does with all of his customs and the same design he helped set up for the MB T-Bird) so that no matter how hard you hit 1 draw, it wouyld never rattle against the covers, NO side vents (which, as Joe Filisko's a MB guy, that was a surprise), and the covers were extremely thin stainless steel, the same thickness as the Manji.
Once I put them on, the volume increased dramatically, almost like a tightly embossed custom, but along with it, the brightness increased far too much for me to take, so I put the BR covers back on.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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sergiojl
24 posts
Jul 28, 2011
3:02 PM
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If you want to try a very good harmonica you will find great the Suzuki Fire Breath.
What an harmonica!
The tone is great, not in the Manji style, more mellow, but not too much. And if you are looking for looks as well I think is the beautiest harmonica in the market. Before here I thought special 20's were comfortable, now I know the higher level in confort, it feels great in the mouth.
i have spent all day playing it ( I received it yesterday afternoon).
I love manji's but I feel is a very difficult horse to ride, too brave.
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hvyj
1625 posts
Jul 29, 2011
12:08 PM
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@BBQbob: "Any chrome plating either on the cover plates or on the reed plates (with the reed plates, also nickel/German Silver as well) will add to the brightness as well."
This is very interesting. I wonder to what extent we can extrapolate from this that painted or coated covers darken tone?
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SuzukiDaron
6 posts
Jul 29, 2011
12:15 PM
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Hvyj:
That's pretty much the difference between the Suzuki Promaster and the Hammond.
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-Daron Stinton
SUZUKI MUSIC USA
Got a question about a Suzuki Harp?
Call (800) 854-1594, or e-mail harmonicas@suzukicorp.com
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hvyj
1626 posts
Jul 29, 2011
1:38 PM
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@SuzukiDaron: I have been told that the Hammond combs are manufactured with a different process than ProMaster combs so they are flatter and the specs are more consistent. Is this true?
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SuzukiDaron
7 posts
Jul 29, 2011
3:12 PM
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Hvyj:
Not that I'm aware of. Since I'm w/Suzuki USA, we sell 'em and fix 'em, but we don't make 'em.
However, IMO, it's probably just because the lacquered finish on the Hammond feels smoother and less 'uneven' than the Promaster. But again, as far as I know, the only actual difference IS that lacquer finish.
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-Daron Stinton
SUZUKI MUSIC USA
Got a question about a Suzuki Harp?
Call (800) 854-1594, or e-mail harmonicas@suzukicorp.com
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2011 3:13 PM
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hvyj
1627 posts
Jul 29, 2011
3:31 PM
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@SuzukiDaron: I think the current ProMaster combs are cast and the Hammond combs are anodized. I've been told that this makes the Hammond combs flatter and more consistent in general.
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SuzukiDaron
8 posts
Jul 29, 2011
3:34 PM
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Hvyj: I wish I knew the answer to that for sure! I will ask our engineers at SPAH in a couple of weeks.
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-Daron Stinton
SUZUKI MUSIC USA
Got a question about a Suzuki Harp?
Call (800) 854-1594, or e-mail harmonicas@suzukicorp.com
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