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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
2 Hole Draw Problem: Question on Tone/Embouchure
2 Hole Draw Problem: Question on Tone/Embouchure
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jdblues
1 post
Jul 19, 2011
1:02 PM
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I'm having trouble with the 2 hole draw tone and embouchure (any key or model). I know this is a very common problem (addressed in Adam's Gussow.002 video), and I thought I had achieved a decent tone on the 2 draw, but now I have doubts.
I can draw very softly with relaxed embouchure on the 3 or 4 - using barely any air and sounding the note as quietly as I can. When I move to the 2 hole draw with the same minimal air stream and relaxed embouchure, I end up with NO sound. When I draw a little louder on the 3 or 4 holes and then move down to the 2 hole draw, I can get what I thought was a pretty good sound - but it's not as loud as the 3 or 4 draw using the exact same air stream and embouchure.
Please try this low volume exercise and let me know your results. Can you use the same air stream/embouchure to draw holes 2, 3, and 4 with the same volume, or do you suffer from my problem? Can you maintain good technique but still find a volume low enough that the 3 draw will sound but the 2 draw will not?
Basically I'm worried this is a problem with my technique and not just the fact that larger, lower reeds require more force to vibrate.
How can I tell the difference between a technique problem and the natural effect of larger reeds?
Thank you for taking some time to help :)
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kudzurunner
2604 posts
Jul 19, 2011
1:52 PM
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What key harp are you playing? Does the problem remain the same when you change keys?
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jdblues
2 posts
Jul 19, 2011
2:07 PM
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I have the same problem in any key, any harp I have tried.
I've tried a variety of Marine Bands and Special 20s in A, C, and D and on cheap Piedmont Blues E and F harps. 2 draw always requires a bit more air to sound than 3 draw.
If you try what I'm describing, making the quietest possible 3 draw and sliding over to the 2 draw with the same air flow and embouchure, do you get a sound?
Is it a matter of minimizing the difference in my technique/tone/volume between 2 and 3 draw or should I be able to completely eliminate the difference?
Thanks for the quick reply! I really appreciate your videos and advice.
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nacoran
4332 posts
Jul 19, 2011
3:14 PM
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I can recreate what you are talking about, but I have to really try. I adjust my embouchure on the fly for different holes. I can get the 2 to sound with really minimal breath force, but I have to open up the inside of my mouth a bit to really use as little air as possible.
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Nate
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K_Hungus
6 posts
Jul 19, 2011
3:54 PM
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@ jdblues you might try this: Tilt the harp (front down) and lower your jaw.
I can get what you describe (sounding 3 and 2 with minimal brath and no change), with effort but the sound is thin on 3 as well as 2. If this don't work try tongue blocking
'Basically I'm worried this is a problem with my technique and not just the fact that larger, lower reeds require more force to vibrate.'
I think its mainly an ebmouchure thing. More harp in the mouth = fatter tone, on every hole
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HarmonicaMick
240 posts
Jul 20, 2011
6:21 AM
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@ jdblues: I've just tried your low volume exercise, and I don't think that this is a problem with your technique. When I go from 4 draw to 3 draw to 2 draw, without increasing the airflow, I, too, don't get any note on the 2 draw, and I'm certainly not a beginner.
I've never really thought about it before - just like I don't think about how I walk - but I suppose you just get into the habit of drawing a little more air on the 2 draw.
I'm not one of those who plays with the harp tilted, as K_Hungus suggested; I just let it go into my mouth at a natural angle. Also, I'm not altogether sure that this would make any difference. If you do play that way then the usual method is to tilt the back of the harp up so that your top lip covers much of the cover plate. The sound hole is then formed with the little 'v' that is made by your bottom lip. The technique does give a very nice tone, but I could never get used to re-learning everything that way, and saw no appreciable benefit in trying. Oops! I'm starting to stray from the point.
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jdblues
3 posts
Jul 21, 2011
11:09 AM
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Thanks for the feedback everyone.
I think I have diagnosed the problem: tension in my throat. I need to practice relaxing the muscles in my throat, neck, and shoulders, not just the muscles in my jaw, mouth, and lips.
Can anyone offer a little advice on relaxing the throat /neck/shoulders while playing?
Do you think general (not harmonica specific) relaxation exercises, like meditation, would be helpful?
By the way, I'm no longer sure the minimal breath exercise I described is useful. In addition to technique, part of the different results on 2 draw and 3 draw may just be the fact that the 2 draw reed is bigger. Also, minimizing the volume (I am talking about playing at a BARELY audible level) may not be a useful way to examine my technique because I would never actually play at that volume.
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HarmonicaMick
244 posts
Jul 21, 2011
12:08 PM
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To address your original question: you are right that the lower (larger) reeds require more air pressure to make them move; that is just an unavoidable part of the laws of physics. I don't know why I didn't just say that in the first place.
As for relaxing, when most people learn an instrument they tend to tense up when they start to do something that is new, and hence difficult, to them. For example, with pianists, it's their shoulders and wrists that tense up, and they tend to hunch. A lot of that tension can be alleviated by practising the new, tricky thing as slowly as you can do it without tensing up, and build speed as and when you can.
If you just go on playing the same passage or technique at a speed which is beyond your technique then there is a chance that you will make the tension a part of your playing, which will inhibit your overall progress. You'll just get used to playing all tensed up.
As for breathing through the instrument, whatever method you're learning from, it should make it clear that that is precisely what you should be doing: not blowing and sucking, but breathing in and out.
Don't bang your head against the wall over your 'playing quietly exercise'. Just do it as well as you can and accept whatever your current limitations are. In any case, the 2 draw can only be played so quietly before it stops vibrating. Worrying about it may well be a part of your current tendency to tense up. I've done that with some techniques, and I expect that most of us have.
I know that talk is easy, but taking things down to a point whereby you can manage them certainly won't do any harm.
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nacoran
4344 posts
Jul 21, 2011
12:36 PM
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Jdblues, I don't think it has much to do with the size of the reed, at least not directly. Remember, each hole has two reeds that interact with each other and they are not the same number of half steps apart in each hole. The reeds in a C harp, for instance, are tuned to E and G in the 2 hole (E F F# G) and G and B in the 3 hole (G Ab A Bb B). The extra half step, the ration between the reeds, may be a bigger factor, especially since you say it's happening across multiple harps.
As for non-harp relaxing, I'd imagine simple breathing exercises, maybe with some progressive muscle relaxation would help.
EG
GB
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Nate
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The Iceman
26 posts
Jul 21, 2011
2:10 PM
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Breathe the harmonica....don't suck and blow. This problem is usually caused by approaching the harmonica with a tiny pucker and sucking air. Relax lips, bringing harmonica to you, not stopping harmonica few inches in front of your mouth reaching forward with your lips. Harmonica should actually be tilted up almost 45 degree angle, resting on your lower lip - same as when you bring a glass of water to your mouth to take a sip.
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The Iceman
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HarmonicaMick
245 posts
Jul 21, 2011
2:47 PM
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"Harmonica should actually be tilted up almost 45 degree angle, resting on your lower lip - same as when you bring a glass of water to your mouth to take a sip."
Not trying to be funny, but there's no 'should' about it. That's one way that some teachers recommend; others recommend the more usual pucker that doesn't rely on the little 'v' that's formed by the bottom lip - the method you're advocating. Both methods have their pros and cons, but neither one is more correct than the other.
EDIT: an awful lot of great players teach and use the standard pucker, Adam and Madcat Ruth, to name just two.
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Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2011 2:49 PM
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The Iceman
32 posts
Jul 22, 2011
10:45 AM
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Am not advocating any little V formed by bottom lip. When the lips are relaxed and the harmonica is resting properly, there is no little V. If you allow the upper lip to rest and extend onto the top cover plate, the harmonica will naturally tip upwards.
When you approach the harmonica straight on, it makes one tend to pucker up (like whistle pucker) and suck and blow, which is not the most efficient way to play.
However, don't want to get into difference of opinion discussion. Have spent many years distilling the most efficient and rapid way to teach harmonica, and the tipping 45 degrees makes the most sense in my evolution as a teacher. Many years and many students later, this approach has proven an excellent one.
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The Iceman
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HarmonicaMick
247 posts
Jul 22, 2011
12:08 PM
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"However, don't want to get into difference of opinion discussion."
Well, don't then.
As a teacher, I'm sure you're aware that the pucker is a method that is used by many pros/teachers, as, indeed, I've already pointed out.
And let's not split hairs over the little v. I think I got that description from a harmonica instruction video, though I can't remember which one. It might have been Barrett's. In any case, I'm sure you know what I mean.
Anyhow, all I was trying to say was that it is perfectly possibly to reach a very high standard with the pucker technique, even though the other method does negate any tendency to pucker too tightly; it is a very good way to play. No question of it.
By the way, I thought that after all my years on this earth, I had understood what 'advocate' means. The Cambridge online dictionary defines it as: to publicly support or suggest an idea, development or way of doing something.
Phew! I thought my memory must be getting ropey.
Incidentally, I stopped posting on here nearly a year ago because I got so fed up with not being able to have a 'difference of opinion' discussion. I like them. Let's have them. I don't care how long you've been teaching. Your view is no doubt a valid view, but it's not the final view. No one's is.
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barbequebob
1691 posts
Jul 23, 2011
9:16 AM
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One thing that hasn't been menioned is that often times when players are teaching themselves how ro play, a very common problem for for them is the fact that they very well can be holding the harp too far away to make proper contact and this fare more common with those using the LP/pucker method than with the tongue block menthod and what happends is that when it is held too far away, holes may seem too small and because of being too far away, TECKLOADS of air is being wasted because air is leaking thru the embouchure and this is what this sounds like.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarmonicaMick
254 posts
Jul 23, 2011
9:41 AM
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Also, I think - which means I'm not sure - that another problem with the pucker method originates not with the mouth, but rather the way that some people hold the harp.
I hold it much like Adam does with his sandwich grip, but I don't make any attempt to have my finger and thumb 'equidistant', I just let them rest on the harp as they fall, with the back of the harp resting on my middle finger. I say 'rest' because I'm not really holding it as such; it's more like it's wobbling about in a three-sided box. That way, your pucker can more easily cover the harp without fighting for space, and your chamber at the back, ironically, is more tight than if you try to grip the harp too tightly.
I don't think I'm talking rubbish, but someone please tell me if you think I am, cos bad info can harm people's progress.
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The Iceman
40 posts
Jul 23, 2011
6:06 PM
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Check this out:
Hold the harmonica a foot away and look at the front of the comb. The holes each look **cm wide and **cm tall (I don't have the exacts). This is a small opening, to be sure, and is perceived by the mind as such. Brain tells Mouth "get ready to cover this tiny hole". Mr. Mouth puckers to assuage Mr. Brain.
Shift the Paradigm Thusly:
Look at the width of each hole. Now, notice the vertical wood or plastic post on each side of every hole. They are each xxcm wide. Realistically, since air does not pass through these solid objects, one may add these extra cm to the width of perceived opening, actually doubling the width (or close to doubling). Use this same line of logic with the height. Above and below each hole/chamber are the cover plates, more solid objects. Factor this into the mix. Now, when you perceive the hole/chamber, it is a much larger area. Brain transmits new info to Mouth. Mouth responds by -not puckering - and can relax into a more reasonable embouchure, like when one says "aww"
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The Iceman
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2011 6:30 PM
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The Iceman
41 posts
Jul 23, 2011
6:08 PM
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and next, of course, you angle the harmonica up 45 degrees (koff)
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The Iceman
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2011 6:12 PM
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