I've recently started attending an acoustic jam, and I am really enjoying busting the harmonica out for the blues numbers, as well as playing third position minor stuff and, last night, a bit of first position major stuff.
My knowledge of the actual layout of the harmonica (for example:there is a E chord next, where's the root note?), especially when moving away from my C harmonica, has come out as a major weak point that I need to rectify, so I was wondering: how do the rest of you on here approach this?
Do you learn how chords relate to their key (i.e. identify that chord as the VI of the key and so know where that is on any harmonica you play regardless of key)?
Do you memorise every note in every hole of every harmonica you own?
Do you only memorise a few key notes for each position on every harmonica?
Do you not bother with all that, know where your root note is and feel your way around from there?
I'm thinking that the first option is the best way to go long-term, but am aware that I will be looking at a good few month's to commit it all to memory. I was wondering if anyone has a simpler method they use that could get me up and running for the majority of tunes a little bit quicker.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 5:56 AM
Hi Andy, there are a couple of things to consider here. The first is that with blues and blues related songs you do not need to change the key of the scale you are playing as the chords change (although you can experiment with this). If, for example, the song is a i,iv,v progression in G you only need to be playing your scale in G. Obviously different notes will sound differently against the different chords. Getting used to these is a matter of experimentation and experience.
The other thing is that all harmonicas are set up the same way, just in different keys (excluding alternate tunings etc). So as you state in your second point you know which hole relates to the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. degree of the scale.
So, playing in second position the 2draw in the root of the (i)chord, the 4blow is the root of the (iv)chord, and the 4draw is the root of the (v)chord. This is the same on all harmonicas no matter what key you are playing in.
It helps me to think in scale degrees rather than actually notes and how they all relate – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(music)
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 6:16 AM
@Baker: sorry, I'm not explaining myself correctly:
I'm quite comfortable finding my way around a I,IV,V in 2nd and third positions. I'm wondering about the best method to expand that beyond blues to play with songs that aren't in the I,IV,V progression.
And while I know you can stick to one scale, I like to make use of the extra options presented by resolving to the tones of the chord you're playing over, throwing in passing notes etc. etc; but again, I've only ever done this within a blues progression.
Your answer has pointed me more towards the scale degree direction though. thanks for the reply :)
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 6:30 AM
I am with Baker ,I do it by using intervals , I created a harp chart for the first 3 positions , and as long as you have some knowledge of theory and know how chords are created you gonna be able to play over any chord progression in a particular position.
You have to go to the bottom of the first page to get the updated chart , the first chart has an empty one so you can made one for any other position( 12 would be a useful one)
Excellent question. I tend to think most readily in terms of degrees of the scale. There are 6 commonly used positions. I pretty much know which hole is which degree of the scale in which position. These locations are different for each respective position on the harmonica, but are the same for every key of harmonica.
So, for example if i want a flat third on the high end in 5th position, i can find it at B9 on any key of harp. Need a major second in 5th position? Play D2* or 9B* on any key of harp. if I want to play a ninth on the high end in 2d position i can play it at D10 or D6 on any key of harp. Need to play a fourth in 5th position (which is also the flat seventh of the V chord)? D3** D6 and D10 give you that note in any key, so long as you are playing in 5th position. Need a major seventh in 4th position? Play D3*** or D6* and you get a major seventh on any key of harp so long as you are in 4th position (which, btw, is a necessary note if you need to play in a harmonic minor key). Etc.
I like to play a D3/D6 split in second position which gives me a third/ninth double stop (which is a partial ninth chord that sounds cool) in any key so long as i am in second position.
For years I was too lazy to sit down and learn to "spell" all 12 major key scales. Lately, I've started to learn to memorize ("spell") those scales, so I'm finding it easier to transpose from degrees of the scale to note names. But i still tend to think in terms of degrees of the scale, while most musicians tend to think (and speak) in terms of note names. once you can spell the 12 major scales, adjusting to spell the different types of minor scales is NBD--you just remember which notes to flatten for which minor scale, which isn't very hard.
On the Suzuki World Class Harmonicas site they have notation charts with diagrams of the note layouts on Richter tuned harmonicas in all 12 keys. VERY useful reference.
Once you understand where to find the notes, if another musician gives you the chord changes and you know which notes make up which chord, you can pick a position that most easily gives you the notes you need (or most of the notes you need) and you play what sounds good using your knowledge of note location and your ear as a guide. Being able to "spell' your scales and knowing what terms like "minor" "major" "augmented" "diminished" "sus" "[dominant] seventh" etc. mean in relation to chords is really helpful in understanding the note structure of particular chords. My knowledge of chord structure is very much a work in progress, but if you know what notes are in a particular chord and what notes you have available on the harmonica in which position you are able to get around if the musicians you are playing with tell you the key and the chord changes.
BUT you don't need to be scale bound. By this i mean that even if you are playing non-blues material, you don't need to slavishly play the scale of the chord you happen to be on. chord tones are fine and you can always mix in scale tones from the scale of the key you are playing in. don't be mechanical about it.
IMHO, the best way to learn note locations is to learn to play different scales/modes in different positions. some of these scales have common breath patterns (click on my user name for some tab). don't be intimidated by multiple positions. playing in different positions is just playing the harmonica in different keys which is something musicians who play other instruments do all the time.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 8:58 AM
@Andy. No worries. Sorry if I came across a little patronising. I wasn't sure how much you knew already.
:)
If you are looking to expand out of blues, I would look at major and minor pentatonic scales. I believe there is some very good information in hvyj's profile info. As he often says here, you can get a lot of milage out of these.
If you are already pretty comfortable playing over a i,iv,v progression in 2nd and 3rd positions, you probably already have a pretty good "feel" for where the notes you want are already.
A trick I often use when playing on non-blues tunes, especially if I don't know them, is to keep the melody in my head as I am playing. I try and improvise around the melody, this means that I am hopefully playing something that sounds ok over the chord progressions and also, hopefully, means I am playing something which sounds "musical" rather than just noodling.
Again though, whichever scales I choose to use, for me I always think about them in scale degrees.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 9:07 AM
This may seem pretty basic, but a HUGH consideration when playing non-blues material is knowing whether the tune has a major or a dominant (flat) 7th in the melody. That has a significant effect on harp/position selection and note/scale choice.
There are some relatively simple basic things like this which, if understood, simplify practical decision making about what/how to play on unfamiliar non blues material.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 9:36 AM
This is something I've been thinking about lately. As a diatonic player, I think my instrument is the harmonica set, rather than one particular harp, so I think a worthy goal is knowing where any note is anywhere in the set.
I don't think there are any shortcuts for getting there, though. One harp at a time, I guess.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 10:25 AM
I have memorized all 12 major scales. I have memorized the names of the notes on a keyboard.
Let's say I have a C harp. The C major scale is
C D E F G A B C and I can number those notes: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
I also know there are some keyboard notes not in this scale. For example Db is after C and before D.
C Db D since there is no Db in the C major scale, I can say it is one note lower than D, or one note flatter than D. Since D is the second note in the C major scale, I can call it the flat 2, spelled 2b.
C Db D 1 2b 2
Here is the keyboard notes from C to C, numbered in relationship to their position in the C major scale:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C 1 2b 2 3b 3 4 5b 5 6b 6 7b 7 8
Notice there is no flat one, no flat four and no flat eight. That is because there is no black key on the keyboard between E and F and also B and C. That means if you flatted F, the fourth note, you would get E. That is already numbered as the third note. To call it a flat fourth would be giving it a second unnecessary name. Now, in some very advanced jazz theory you will hear it called a flat four. But it is just another name being used for academic purposes.
If we agree to not be so academic, You need to memorize this: in the numbering of any chromatic scale (all the keyboard notes starting any ending on any root) there is never a flat one, four or eight.
So if we had a G harp, the G chromatic scale would be:
G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G 1 2b 2 3b 3 4 5b 5 6b 6 7b 7 8
I used the sharp names for the keyboard notes because G has an F#, but you could call A# by the name Bb during the key of G, and people often do because they are often thinking of it as a flattened third and since the third note is B, it is more appropriate to call it Bb since both B and Bb use the letter B.
Well, if we put these two scale on top of each other:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C 1 2b 2 3b 3 4 5b 5 6b 6 7b 7 8 G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F#G
You can use this method to find the names of the notes on a G harp. Just use your knowledge of a C harp. What is in one blow on a C harp? C. What number is C in the C chromatic scale? 1. What is the first or 1 note of the G chromatic scale? G.
Let's pick a tougher one. What is in 3 draw single bend on a C harp? Bb. What number is Bb in the C chromatic scale? 7b. What is the 7b note in the G chromatic scale? F. 3 draw single bend is F on a G harp.
Learn the notes on the keyboard. Start on you harp name's notes. Write them out and number them, remembering there is no flat one, four or eight. Compare it to the C chromatic scale numbers. Take the layout notes on the C harp and find those note's number values in the C chromatic scael. Find the note that relates to those number values in your harp name's chromatic scale and know the name of the note in your harp's holes.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 7:56 PM
Michael is revealing a much easier way to memorize the notes in any given richter harp than what you would otherwise have to deal with if you were to instead task yourself with sitting down everyday for six months in order to memorize harp layouts.
The patterns will help you to learn much more easily and will also help you to keep that information straight while giving you a cross check system in the ( very likely ) event of a lapse of memory.
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM
Glad it works for you. His system is too convoluted to be any use to me.
I already know all the major scales and how to spell the the various chords found on each harp, so I can easily determine where a note is. That isn't the same thing as knowing it though.
Looking at my message, it is clear the internet pushed my numbers so they are not under the appropriate notes. Hopefully the people for whom it is not too convoluted will understand it.
Time: I think the answer to your question is you have to just drill until years later you know them. I know them after years of thinking about it that started with my system.
What I think you should ask yourself is do you know your numbers for the major scales. Saying you know all the major scales is not the same as knowing F# is the 6th note in the A major scale. Until you know that stuff like the back of your hand you will have to go the long route of actually memorizing all 12 harps.
I dunno. If you ask a lot of players what that big note they played near the end was, they could easily say 5 draw or 2/5 draw split..whatever...but ask them the actual note and many may not know. I would have to think a minute.
If you have the correct harp for the position you are playing..IMHO...no more letters needed.
Much easier to speak in terms of the flat 5 or the major six than to confuse with letter notes.
This way..you only learn it once for each position you play...not 12 times for each position you play...results are the same.
"If you have the correct harp for the position you are playing..IMHO...no more letters needed."
yes and no. certainly, choosing a harp that puts you in a position where you have a comfortable scale/mode that fits the material can really go a long way and may give you exactly what you need more often than not.
BUT, on certain non blues material, the usual patterns and licks may not work and you need to be more deliberate/selective about note choice in order to sound right and it really helps to know what your target notes are and where they are found.
One example might be a when a HARMONIC minor tune gets called. Fourth position will work, but you need to play MAJOR 7th. so, you will need to know where to find that note. Just playing the usual fourth position scale (natural minor/Aeolean mode) won't give you what you need. Maybe not the best example, but you get the idea.
Most other musicians talk in note names. So if they are going to give you changes to help you out they will more often than not use letter names. So it does help if you can associate the letter name with a degree of the scale. FWIW.
hvyj...I understand what you are saying, but if I am playing 4th position in hamonica minor and need the major 7th ...I know I need to bend the 6 draw down a 1/2 step to get it, but what the actual note name is irrelevent to me. A band leader provbably won't ask you to play a B natural or whatever...he would more than likely say harmonic minor or major 7 or something similar.
It is great if you learn the name of every note for every position for every harp, but if not you can get by fine just knowing root and degrees of the scale for the positions you play.
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2011 1:26 PM
Oh, yeah. i got by fine doing that for years and still do to a significant extent. But when musicians start explaining the changes of unfamiliar non-blues material to you at a jam or a rehearsal, they most likely will be using letter names. So it really does help to be able to convert those letter names to degrees of the relevant scale and to be able to know what notes make up which chords.
I cannot argue that an advanced musician like yourself who plays with the caliber people you do, needs to know a LOT more than your average I,IV,V blues guy that plays 90% 2nd position.
Knowledge is a good thing.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around 9th and 12ths or whatever. Isn't a 9th the same thing as a 2nd? Does playing the 9th eliminate the clash between the 1st and 2nd? I would like to understand this stuff. Maybe another thread?
I certainly don't consider myself an advanced musician or anything like that. But, yeah, i wouldn't be able to function with the guys i gig with if i had to ask them to talk to me only in terms of degrees of the scale all the time. i mean, they don't mind answering questions for me and explaining things to me, but i don't know if they'd have enough patience to translate everything into degrees of the scale all the time. Just as important, I'd be left in the dark when listening to them talk to each other. And i learn quite a bit from listening to those interactions.
Anyway, a 9th is an extension tone. In blues the I chord consists of the 1st, 3rd, 5th and flat 7th degrees of the scale played simultaneously. The 8th is the same note as the 1st an octave up. The 9th is the same note as the 2d only an octave up and lies very harmoniously over the flat 7th.
9th chords are very common in traditional blues.
Why extension tones are so cool is that they allow you to use the other notes from the rest of the scale that were not originally used to build the basic chord. On diatonic harp, if you don't have the scale tones or chord tones available that you would like to have, you usually have extension tones available because those notes are from the rest of the scale. And those extension tones will work well musically if you play them. For example, you can play over each chord change using only extension tones of the underlying chord and it will fit well musically.
Listen to Sugar Blue work the high end. for the most part, he's NOT just playing scales. he's mixing in a lot of extension tones that tie to the chords he's playing them over and it sounds very musical. Among other things it allows you to use non blues scale notes in a bluesy way, and opens up the whole harp.
So, yeah you can say that "playing the 9th eliminates the clash between the 1st and the 2nd" but a more useful way to look it is that playing the 9th HARMONIZES the 2d/9th with the 7th.
Extension tones are related to the concept of chord substitutions. My knowledge of chord structure is very much a work in progress and my knowledge of chord substitutions is even more primitive. But I kinda sorta have begun to understand extension tones and how to use them. Extension tones are very cool, very musical and really helpful in breaking out of playing the SOS all the time. They can give your playing a whole different sound and open up very useful alternative approaches to note selection on a diatonic harp which really helps me since i don't OB.
I have absolutely no formal music training, so i may not be explaining this stuff correctly and certainly may be subject to correction by those who are educated musicians. But i think I've got a practical grasp of the basic concept.
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2011 6:34 PM
I think it's easier just to memorize the harp just by what degree of the scale each note is. You can use that later to memorize the names of the notes but in the meantime you have a way to communicate with the other musicians in 1/12th the time. Even a guitar player can count up to see where he is in the scale!!!
It's also is useful for knowing what chords you are playing. It's not a substitute for memorizing all the note names for each harp, but it's a start.
Micheal, I learned the notes in a scale differently. I learned the order of sharps and flats first with the handy mnemonic 'Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle' (Sharps) and Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father' (Flats)- Two mnemonic devices (and actually if you know one you know the other since the words are just backwards).
Let's see if I can figure out the names of the keys from the key signatures... the way we did it in theory class involved reading sheet music...
Instead, if you have sharps, take the last sharp (say you have a key signature with three sharps, Father Charles Goes- take the G and count up a full step (Ab, A) it's the key of A. (I think that works for all of them...)
For flats take the last flat and it's what, 3 whole steps? Hmm, that's a mess. Okay, I give...
I still believe learning the steps of the scale is easier for a beginner than all the note names, just for getting a rudimentary way to communicate with other musicians as quickly as possible, even if I'm having problems articulating tonight. :0
After re-reading my explanation of extension tones, I think i need to clarify some things.
A 9th is a 2d in the upper register, an 11th is a 4th and a 13th is a 6th. A rudimentary chord is built using every other note, like 1,3,5,7. After you get back to 1 (which is an 8th in the next octave), the other notes in that octave (which were the 2d, 4th and 6th in the lower octave) now become a 9th, 11th and 13th in the upper octave and are called "extensions."
These "extension tones" can then become part of the ever other note pattern from which the chord was originally built, so you can stack them on top of (or play them over) that chord and they harmonize very well with the chord. Extensions can be used to allow every note of the scale to become a chord tone which really opens up available note choices on a diatonic harp.
@harpdude61: I'm not sure I would agree that the 2d degree of the scale "clashes" with the tonic (the 1). As a general rule, i think most of the time an adjacent or neighboring note is playable and will sound decent, but there's always exceptions depending in the particular material.
hvyj....I want to absorb this so I may need to research more.
I've been taught..here is the blues scale so these are the notes you can use.
So you are saying you can use any note as long as it is above the octave you are playing in?
and if I play a draw split, it works as long as the lower note is in the chord you are playing?
I sometimes use the major 7th in blues just to dip under the root before playing it and the major 6 once in awhile. Thats pretty much all I have tried outside the blues scale.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2011 8:50 AM
"I've been taught..here is the blues scale so these are the notes you can use."
Those are the notes you can use. But they are not the ONLY notes you can or do use for playing blues. Even the most traditional authentic blues players would sometimes use notes outside of the blues scale. Your blues playing would be pretty stultified if you ONLY used blues scale tones. You know, for example, the Mixolydian scale can work effectively on a blues tune in the right spots. B.B. King uses it regularly.
Learning scales is great discipline, develops technique and teaches you where to find particular notes. Scales are a MEANS to use in deciding what to play. They are not an end in themselves that determines what to play
"So you are saying you can use any note as long as it is above the octave you are playing in?'
No. It's not that simple. It's in HOW and WHEN you use those other notes. But yes, if done properly, many non blues scale tones can be used and will be musical and depending how and when they are played can even sound very bluesy. A lot of it is stylistic. If you get more musically sophisticated, your sound is less traditional (and, IMHO, less boring). i mean, if you want to emulate guys like Mark Hummel and R.J. Mishco this stuff is not what they do. But if you like the more modern and musically sophisticated sound of players like Mark Ford or Sugar Blue this is the kind of thing they are doing. SB may be an unpopular example, because he can be criticized for being excessive about the NUMBER of notes he plays and the TEMPO at which he plays them.However, his note SELECTION is very sophisticated and extremely musical. Then, at a more personal level, you have to confront the basic artistic question of what direction you are going in: Do you want to copy or create?
"and if I play a draw split, it works as long as the lower note is in the chord you are playing?'
Well, whether it works or whether it works well are two different questions. If you are playing I IV V blues is second position just about everything works--I mean it's actually pretty hard to hit a really bad note. But, for a non-octave split to work WELL, you need to pay attention to what the upper note is in relation to the lower chord that you've selected the lower note from. It's not a random thing.
The reason the MAJOR pentatonic scale sometimes can sound pretty good on a blues tune in selected spots is because it has the SAME NOTES as the minor pentatonic scale (which is almost the same as a blues scale) of the relative minor key of the key you are in. So if you play major pentatonic on a selected passage of a blues tune, you are essentially playing blues in the relative minor key which can sometimes work extremely well--NOT a real traditional sound, but can be very bluesy nevertheless. Listen to what real good guitar players do with this stuff.
So, do you want to copy or create? Do you want to play MUSIC or do you want to play HARMONICA? Personally, I've never wanted to play my harmonica like it was a harmonica.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2011 12:18 PM
Sugar Blue playing with Mick Taylor using extension tones as passing tones in portions of his solo when he moves up into the higher register of the harp.
Actually, SB is probably playing Mixolydian on the high end, but what ever scale it is, some of those scale notes are also extension tones. His PLACEMENT of those notes in relation to the underlying chord for which they are extension tones is one of the things that makes SB such a masterful musician.
I imagine that teaching would be a great experience. I get quite a bit out of composing the posts i sometimes put up explaining stuff. It helps me organize the information I have drifting around in my head.
you know, so many of the harp players I know personally are resistant if not actually hostile to attempts to discuss or explain stuff like this.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2011 2:46 PM
David Barrett has a (what seems to be) quite comprehensive seires of lessons on learning how to play outside of blues progression called No More Excuses on the Harmonica Session website .
He seems to be encouraging you to learn BOTH the interval, and the name of the note as you play. I'm going to give these a go for the next month and report back!
@Harpdude61: Talking of David Barrett, his book 'Improvising Blues Harmonica' has a chapter that deals with different scales, extension tones, passing notes and some of the other ground you've discussed, as well as an accompanying CD demonstrating their use. May be worth checking out? Ifound it really useful so far, and will probably keep coming back to it.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2011 4:19 AM
Barrett's materials are terrific as far as they go. They only deal with playing blues and they only discuss 1st 2d and 3rd positions. But within those fairly severe limitations, his stuff is excellent.
The treatment of extension tones in "Improvising Blues Harmonica" is relatively brief, but is very instructive as far as it goes. That's one of Barrett's very best books.
Dave doesn't deal with playing styles of music other than blues or any of the interesting musical things that can be done playing harp in positions above third. Perhaps he is just pandering to the market. But he is very expert. His stuff is always intelligently laid out, musically and technically sound, and extremely useful within its obvious limitations. Also, based on the email interactions I've had with him, Dave seems to be a very nice guy and has a sincerely considerate and helpful attitude.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2011 6:11 AM
@hvyj: I would agree with you totally on every point there.
To me; this is where the discussion in another thread about whether we should study music theory comes into it. If you have a basic understanding of music theory (my knowledge of it is very rudimentary) you can extrapolate what you've learnt in the blues setting and adapt it to fit other forms of music. Scales, Chords, extensions, passing notes: these things are the universal building blocks to every form of music, it's just that different types of music pick and choose different blocks.
Have to say I was a bit unsure of starting this thread due to the very fact that it's a Blues Harmonica forum, but you guys have all been really helpful so far.
@Tuckster; the reality is, some players have a naturally better ear than others. Those blessed with a very good ear are better equipped to learn theory "backwards." Those of us who do not have a naturally good ear need to know more theory in order to figure out what to play that will sound good.
I rely on my ears to play. I'm not sure if I have a good ear. If someone tells me play C G E ,they'll get a "deer in the headlights" look. But if they play it for me, all is well. I'll be getting my first Social Security check next month,so things don't sink in as quickly as they once did. Learning backwards might actually work for me.Last week at rehearsal, we were doing "Burnin' Love" in D. The guitarist asked me if I could do "that B minor part" in a solo. Deer in the headlights. I played what I thought was appropriate and the guitarist said I nailed it. I must be doing something right,but I'd sure like to communicate better musically.
"But if they play it for me, all is well." Then you have a good ear. Often I can copy purely by ear, but a lot of times i need to be told what the notes are. Once i know, i can find them and then can do it again by ear. But I am not always able to identify the target notes by ear the first time through, although I am much better at that than i used to be.
hvyj- it sounds like we're not that different. The only difference MIGHT be that I've been at it longer. But I bet if we were both playing out of our "comfort zone", you'd do better than me simply because you have more theory knowledge.
