|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Stupid questions from a rank beginner!
Stupid questions from a rank beginner!
Page:
1
VT2
4 posts
Jul 15, 2011
7:17 PM
|
I just bought 6 new Suzuki Bluesmaster Harmonicas mostly because I liked the way they looked and the way they sounded when Brendan Powers played them. But now I have just heard about the Hohner XB-40 which is supposed to be able to bend on every note on the harmonica without using overbends and am just wondering why everybody who plays wouldn't rush out to get this harmonica if they could afford it? DO we as harmonica players want to make things tough on ourselves? What about different tunings like the Power Bender or Jim's True Chromatic? They both seem to offer a better way of playing harmonica then the Richter tuning...remember these are just opinions based on what I have read because I really can't play well. I was just thinking that since I am just learning why not learn with new equipment and tunings that offer more? If I undrstand correctly you can get 16 chords on the True Chromatice diatonic harmonica? And can't you get all the notes on a Power Bender without overbends? Could somebody help me out?
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2011 7:18 PM
|
arzajac
575 posts
Jul 15, 2011
8:00 PM
|
I can play many octaves of the whole chromatic scale on my piano and I can make a lot of nice music using those keys. I can't create all of those notes on a Richter-Tuned harp but there is a lot of music that I *can* play on those harps that I can't play on piano.
Sure, I can play those notes on the piano but they don't come out the same.
Once I get the hang of the Powerbender, there may be a few things I can play on it that I can't play on a RT harp.
That's my perspective on your question.
Cheers!
----------
|
kudzurunner
2600 posts
Jul 15, 2011
8:26 PM
|
The answers to your questions depend on what sort of music you want to learn how to play. If you want to learn how to play blues on the harmonica, 98% of the currently available recorded repertoire in that idiom (blues) can be played on a Hohner Marine Band Model 1896 harmonica--or a Seydel, Suzuki, Lee Oskar, Hering, name your favorite non-custom OTS (off the shelf) diatonic harmonica. You don't need to worry about all the other stuff.
Of course, if you're interested in all the cool new things that can be played on the newfangled harps by people like Brendan, Richard Hunter, Alex Paclin, and half a dozen geniuses in the mountains of France, then you should certainly angst as you're doing.
If you take a list at the Top-10 and second-10 all time great blues harmonica player lists on another page of this website, you'll discover that every single one of those players uses standard diatonic harps.
This doesn't mean that you HAVE to do that. It just means that if blues, per se, is what you want to play on the harp, you CAN do just fine with old-fashioned Richter-tuned harps. Nobody on this forum can argue otherwise with a straight face or any modicum of intellectual honesty. It's delightful, in fact, to be able to offer you such unimpeachable counsel on such a vexed subject. But the evidence for my claim is overwhelming.
I'll quickly add that I'm a fan of every sort of experiment with alternate tuning, and I've been blown away with the amazing things that Brendan and Alex and PT Gazell are doing on the valved harps. Amazing stuff! Nothing I say above should be interpreted as criticism of their musicianship, their harps, or their all-around soulfulness. I'm just giving you straight talk. Your post makes clear that you're agitated by the range of perceived options in the matter of hardware that you feel confronted by. The answer to your question, though, is easy: KISS. Keep it simple, sailor.
|
Chickenthief
116 posts
Jul 15, 2011
9:00 PM
|
@ VT2
You're going to get a lot of good answers for your questions here by some players who are far more experienced than me but I would have to say that if I personally had to go back 2 years and start all over again I would still go with standard 10 hole richter tuning to start out with. For my purposes there is just a whole heavy shitload of great instructional material available for richter and a lot of it is free and easily had.
As for your situation/needs you have to figure out what your predelictions are. For example - if you are in love with the traditional blues sound you might give strong consideration to learning with traditionaly based equipment. If you are into Brendan Powers or PTs thing you might want to at least develop an understanding of what they are using and how that might help you do your own thing.
One thing I would caution you for- don't get too fascinated in harmonicas. If you could only have harps in keys of A, Bb, C, D, G that are in in richter tuning, in good condition and of basic quality then you have more than enough to launch your musical ambitions. I have about 9 or 10 harps that I bought early on that just turned out to be a distraction and a waste of money.
When you are just starting out your interests are best served by exploring new techniques and skills with hours of study and practice. After awhile you will know what you need and the equipment just sort of falls into place.
|
jonlaing
284 posts
Jul 15, 2011
9:00 PM
|
As I understand it, each setup has its own advantages and disadvantages. I think a Suzuki bluesmaster, standard richter is a fine place to start. I just bought a half valves harp, so I'll let you know how that goes, but despite the huplah surrounding over blows, they're really not that hard, so you could be playing fully chromatic very shortly on a standard richter tuned harp. Though, I definitely encourage you to explore other possibilities as well. The important thing is that you make music.
|
nacoran
4317 posts
Jul 15, 2011
9:42 PM
|
Don't forget discrete combs or regular old slide chromatics!
A bunch of good answers already!!! To expand on Jonlaing's comment a bit- there are several things you want to be able to do when you play. Each way you produce a note on a harp, whether it's a blow, draw, bend, overblow, blowbend or whatever, produces sound with different overtones. Blues tends to focus heavily on the draws and the bends because they have a nice dirty sound. If you want to play something light and pretty you might want to play more blow notes.
Then there are chords, major, minor, diminished, augmented, implied, inverted, etc.
There are also simple trade offs like comfort and familiarity. If harmonica size wasn't a factor you could build a harmonica that could play everything. (If it's chords your after, there is always a giant chord harmonica!) The other option is a bunch of different specialty harmonicas, but then you have to learn a different set of holes for each one. The basic diatonic gives you a good mix of useful chords and single notes. If you have a set of 12 keys you can play just about anything. Remember, most songs stay in a one or two octave range and stay in one key. That means the basic Richter tuning has you covered.
That said, there are some really neat looking tunings out there. I'm played Richter, natural minor, solo, and slide chromatic. They each have different strengths.
With Richter you get the most important notes in the top and bottom octaves and all the notes in one key in the middle octave just blows, draws and bends. You get the most important chords and you get 3 octave range. In second position you get draw notes in the right places to make it sound bluesy.
Of course, it depends on your budget. If money wasn't an issue, I'd have a shot at each of the different ways of getting full chromatic tuning, but off the top of my head, aside from learning overblows, I can think of more than a half a dozen harps and techniques I'd have to try and I'm probably forgetting a couple. On top of that, most of the other styles don't have as much learning material out there.
So, that doesn't mean don't try them. Just don't do it because you don't think a regular harp can't get the job done. :)
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
harpdude61
895 posts
Jul 16, 2011
6:32 AM
|
Great comments here. I have not tried any tuning except Richter and I do set up for overblows.
I hope to try more and learn the advantages and usefulness.
I can see it being confusing for a newbie.
Richter is missing a few notes, but it has great chords, double stops, and splits that work well in several positions.
I can't imagine another tuning that gives you 7 positions/modes that lay out as well as they do on Richter. Seems like it was planned that way since they fit so well.
|
hvyj
1548 posts
Jul 16, 2011
7:45 AM
|
Yeah. Once you start fooling around with multiple position playing, you develop a deeper appreciation for the way Richter tuning works. It's really a very clever way to set up the instrument.
Of course, it does have its limitations, which is why there are alternate tuning schemes. But one can do a lot with Richter tuned harps.
|
Gnarly
56 posts
Jul 16, 2011
8:00 AM
|
I agree with everything said above--
Richter shines on blues--
Paddy tuning came from needing that missing note on hole 3 without bending--
Country (SmoJoe) tuning came from a need for a major cross sound--
Powerbender came from wanting play draw bends on top.
Chromatic came from wanting to modulate in half steps 8)
I have devised a tuning that is Richter on top but circular on the bottom, starts with C draw on hole 1, holes 5-10 are just like holes 4-9. Works for lots of stuff, major cross on the bottom, no missing diatonic notes.
But there is great virtue in the Richter tuning, and the rest is character building 8)
Not to mention, it's hard to get alternate tunings without doing it yourself--and you wind up with lots of harmonicas (not that there's anything wrong with that).
The important thing is to play, and the next most important thing is to sound good, so people will let you play!
|
Diggsblues
897 posts
Jul 16, 2011
8:18 AM
|
It depends on the music you love, the harp players you want to play like. If you want to just get all the notes then chromatic will work to without learning how to bend.
----------
Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
|
mercedesrules
99 posts
Jul 16, 2011
8:36 AM
|
.....To answer one of your specific questions, the XB-40 is much bigger than most other diatonic harps.
----------
|
groyster1
1178 posts
Jul 16, 2011
2:14 PM
|
I agree with kudzu there has been a lot of great blues played on a mb1896 it has a great sound and I have some old ones that are JI tuned but have been modified to make them more air tight-they can be pretty leaky ootb
|
VT2
5 posts
Jul 16, 2011
3:02 PM
|
Thanks everybody for the answers. Special thanks to gene...I had seem Pat's review on the XB-40 but this one had the note layout (with bends)! Which brings up more questions. Everybody seems to be jumping on only one part of my question concerning different tunings. Everybody keeps saying that the Richter tuning is the best. Ok, let's go with that. Isn't the XB40 a Richter tuned harmonica? It seems like it to me from the review that gene sent me? So shouldn't this make the XB40 still be a standard diatonic harp but with the benefit of being able to bend (without overbends..which I hear are hard) the same notes and even more notes so that it has more possibilities with the same soulfullness? The reviewer stated that, "First position with the XB-40 can now have the rich minor sound that was available only in third and second position." And he said, "Third position players will find the f# in the 3 and 6-hole blow bends useful as a third and the f natural in the second blow bend as the flat third. This will make it easy to play major runs without that tricky 2 hole first bend (always a difficult note to hit straight on.)" And finally he said, "In the 7 through 10 holes, there are a great number of new combinations. It appears that a skilled user can play the entire chromatic scale using the new draw bends. The cross harp player can continue his blues scale up another octave and the first position player can get through the “no man’s land” of the 5, 6 and 7 holes without stepping on a land mine." PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...I am just trying to learn and understand...I know that kudzurunner is a fantastic player whom I would love to have just half of his ability. I am just trying to learn and so far the only note I can bend is 1 draw...so anything to help me do this, I am all for! Because from what I understand the harmonias that I have are supposed to be pretty easy to bend (ha ha). To Chickenthief, I have the keys of C G D A Bb & F. In answer to Diggsblues, I love all types of music including what Stevie Wonder plays, but after hearing somone play a Stevie song on the diatonic, I decided to go with the diatonic instead of chromatic...I think it has a better sound. If this person didn't play the song exactly like Stevie then I wasn't able to tell the difference...so I'll stick with the diatonic. I want to play all music from blues to classical and to put my own soul into what I play. Thanks again to everybody for your answers! VT2
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2011 3:06 PM
|
harmonicanick
1250 posts
Jul 16, 2011
3:05 PM
|
Look mate, forget the XB40 it does not sound too good.
All my mates have one in the cupboard and it will stay there!!
However Brendan Power will retune your XB40 to whatever mode you wish, including Indian music.
Be warned it dont come cheap..
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2011 3:11 PM
|
hvyj
1553 posts
Jul 16, 2011
3:39 PM
|
@VT2: If you want to understand, start by understanding how to play different scales and modes in different keys (positions) on the harps you already have. Once you learn that, you will also learn the limitations of Richter tuned harps and whether those limitations are significant enough for the material you are trying to play to justify getting a different type of tuning or a different type of harmonica.
If you learn to play the blues scale, the major pentatonic scale and the minor pentatonic sale, you will be able to improvise over a lot of tunes if you know which scale to play over what material. Start there. Or, better yet, just for the exercise, start by learning the do-re-mi scale in first position.
Bending is not an end in itself. Bending is a technique to get certain notes or to give certain notes a particular timbre or inflection. Just because you CAN bend a particular note does not necessarily mean you should.
Btw, I would add an Eb harp to the 6 harps you have and those 7 harps will cover you for a whole lot of tunes.
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2011 3:46 PM
|
groyster1
1179 posts
Jul 16, 2011
3:55 PM
|
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2011 4:14 AM
|
joeleebush
293 posts
Jul 16, 2011
4:11 PM
|
VT2
You write as if you have the determination to get this harp thing in your pocket. You keep that thinking and you will get there.
The guy writing what you posted said...."that 2 hole draw. always a tricky note to hit straight on". In my opinion, he is displaying a weakness in that area of play (yes yes, I have my own weaknesses, but not there).
Prove him wrong by studying that note and tone until you can hit it straight on, every time without a hitch. You can do it...overcoming these truisms on your own can do wonders in making your playing a pleasant thing to hear.
I encourage you...FORCE yourself into the nuisance and boredom of getting that 2 hole into line until you can get four distinct notes (draw) out of it. Then do the same with the 3. You'll be way ahead in the game with just those 2 skills in your pocket.
Remember, dont strive to be one of the best harp men in the world...just work to be in the top 20 million, like I am.
Regards,
Joe Lee
----------
"A man who will not FORCE himself to rise above his circumstances is doomed to a life of mediocrity"....Ty Cobb
|
Michael Rubin
185 posts
Jul 16, 2011
5:09 PM
|
Joeleebush says:
I encourage you...FORCE yourself into the nuisance and boredom of getting that 2 hole into line until you can get four distinct notes (draw) out of it.
I am confused. Let's say you are on a C harp. What are the names of all 4 draw notes on hole 2 draw?
In my opinion, there are 3 draw notes. G, F# and F. You may be able to play a slightly lower pitched F or a slightly higher pitched E but I do not believe it would be considered a standard E. In another country, such as India or China, they may consider that a note, but in the States we do not. I do not mean to be unkind Joeleebush, just to not confuse the newcomers.
|
groyster1
1181 posts
Jul 16, 2011
5:14 PM
|
I was thinking the same thing 2draw allows for a whole step bend which are 3 notes what is the 4th?
|
HarmonicaMick
239 posts
Jul 16, 2011
6:31 PM
|
As has already been said, in one way or another, the reason that folks play the standard, Richter-tuned 10 hole diatonic is because that is the instrument that was used in much of the music that drew them to the harp in the first place.
Its limitations, which you rightly refer to, are, in my view, to a large extent an illusion. It's true that you - or, perhaps I should say most of us - can only get a certain amount of notes out of it, and certain chords can't be played where you'd like them to be played - you can't play a 3 draw whole-step bend while playing a 2 draw half-step bend - but I don't think that considering what the instrument can't do is the right way to approach harp music, or, for that matter, any music.
With any music in any style the thing that can get your hairs standing up on end the most is the quality, or beauty, of the sound that's being produced. Any of you on here who've figured out the priceless value of a good, strong throat vibrato, and strive towards it, will know what I mean.
It's a similar story in most types of music: Leonard Cohen uses women's voices because of their beauty; the backing melodies they sing are childlike in their simplicity, but achingly gorgeous nonetheless. Mozart's arias are often melodically mind-numbingly simple, but sung by a pro opera singer will make you weep.
It's the quality of the sound that makes the music, not the amount of notes that you're able to squeeze out of the instrument.
One last thought: don't forget that it is the limitations you're pointing out that shaped the sounds and phrases that form the harp repertoire. If Little Walter had played an XB-40, or whatever, it would have sounded different; perhaps not bad, just different.
----------
YouTube SlimHarpMick
|
MrVerylongusername
1756 posts
Jul 16, 2011
6:57 PM
|
I never really understood why people are critical of the harp for it's lack of chords - It has enough for what most people need. Heck a sax or a trumpet has no chords and people seem just fine with them.
XB40 is a great bit of engineering and a nice instrument, but at the end of the day (and it really is here... 3am nearly... must go to bed) very, very few people seem to bother with them. It has the size and timbre (kind of) of a chromatic - so folk just stuck with chromatics.
|
VT2
6 posts
Jul 16, 2011
8:37 PM
|
Thanks joleebush for your kind words of encouragement! I went to your site and enjoyed your music. I'll keep trying!
Thanks Again!
VT2
|
joeleebush
294 posts
Jul 16, 2011
9:18 PM
|
To Michael Rubin.
I have absolutely no idea what the names of the notes are when you start bending on that 2 hole draw, I just know they're there and they sound good when they're used at the right place. I relate it to a guitar player bending a string. Who knows what the official notes are...but they sound good, right?
In fact on a C harp, I can get FIVE distinct notes out of that 2 draw. (the lower the key of the harp, the tougher it gets).
This isn't unique with me. There are probably 50,000 other guys out there who can do the exact same thing or better. (It's all about breath control and how much you let slide through your nostrils as opposed to your throat) I just happen to be the one sitting here typing to you about it.
Regards,
Joe Lee
----------
"A man who will not FORCE himself to rise above his circumstances is doomed to a life of mediocrity"....Ty Cobb
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2011 9:24 PM
|
hvyj
1554 posts
Jul 16, 2011
11:11 PM
|
@groyster1:"the 7 harp keys would be A Bb C D Eb F and G?"
Yes.
|
gene
803 posts
Jul 17, 2011
3:45 AM
|
Most of the instructional material is for the standard diatonic. Standard diatonics are reasonably inexpensive. I'm used to the standards, and I have a full set.
If not for all of the above, I believe the Power Bender would be the best tuning available. Maybe the Power Bender tuning will be the standard someday. I think it should be. It just makes too much sense.
But since everything in my fisrt paragraph holds (especially the cost factor), I'll stay with what I have.
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2011 3:46 AM
|
earlounge
315 posts
Jul 17, 2011
11:09 AM
|
I've had the same internal struggle and I decided on richter tuned harps because they are the most common. I can go down to any local music store and buy a harp if I need one. If you want to exclusively play a power bender or valved harp then you better buy some back ups. Waiting for an instrument in the mail is not possible if you have commitments to perform.
Dont' get me wrong, the uncommon tuned harps are very cool and I plan to learn a few of them in the future; but I want to master a richter tuned harp first.
----------
|
nacoran
4328 posts
Jul 17, 2011
12:02 PM
|
To follow up on what earlounge said about availability, I think of the different ways available only one would be relatively easy to replace on a time crunch. I haven't played with one, but Winslow Yerxa's discrete comb, as I understand it, is a comb that isolates each reed so you can get more bends. Since it's a comb system, theoretically, if you blow a reed you'd just have to buy a new donor harp and swap out the plates. All the other techniques, except learning overblows, will require either a specialty harp or a more complex work than just gapping.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
VT2
7 posts
Jul 17, 2011
12:20 PM
|
Well, naturally, I will stick with the Suzuki Bluesmasters that I have...they are good harps and sound great...I'm the one that needs tuned. I am sure the bends are hiding in there some where...just need more practice! And besides, at over $100 a pop, I couldn't afford the XB40s at this point in time anyway! I will keep on practicing and hopefully I will be as good as I want to be. Thanks for all the help! I am sure that I will come up with more "stupid" questions soon and I hope I get this good of response then too!
VT2
|
kudzurunner
2602 posts
Jul 17, 2011
1:59 PM
|
re: The question of how many notes you can get out of the 2 draw on a C harp:
The 2 draw, unbent, is a G. If you're talking about the chromatic scale, you can bend it down half a step to an F# and a full step to an F. If you bend it as hard as possible, you can actually pull it down a shade below that F. And of course you can, if you want, get all the quarter-tones between that flat-F and the original G.
So Joe Lee and Michael are both right. Joe Lee is right that you can get 5--or 10, or 28--different "notes," frequencies, out of the 2 draw. Michael is right that you can only get three notes out of the hole that show up on a piano keyboard or guitar fretboard: F, F#, and G.
In first position, Little Walter's solo on John Brim's "Ice Cream Man" plays the E (on the 2 blow) followed by the F, F#, and G, each on a downbeat. (I'm not sure what key the song is in; I'm simply saying that the solo uses those four "notes," played on those holes on SOME harp.) I'm sure Joe Lee knows this solo, and will appreciate how it offers evidence for the rightness of Michaels claim about there only being three notes on that 2 draw.
One 2 draw note that doesn't get enough attention, it's always seemed to me, is the note that moves BETWEEN the F and F# as you're playing it: the third of the V chord, with a rising edge, usually made on bar 9 of the 12-bar blues. All the great Chicago players knew how to shade the whole-step 2 draw bend a little sharp for the blueing effect.
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2011 2:03 PM
|
joeleebush
296 posts
Jul 18, 2011
3:04 AM
|
I never knew that was Jacobs doing that first position harp work on Ice Cream Man. (think it was in A and he used an A harp in first). I was always a little spooky about the double entendre so I never performed it in a show.
Once again Walter's brilliance and fluidity with the instrument shines!
Learn something new just about every day around here.
The technical analysis furnished by Adam is pretty good info.
----------
"A man who will not FORCE himself to rise above his circumstances is doomed to a life of mediocrity"....Ty Cobb
|
Post a Message
|
