toxic_tone
223 posts
Jul 02, 2011
2:32 PM
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ok this is my issue.... i am currently playing with a pretty good band however, the sound is wayyyyyy too loud. the 2 guitar player get very very loud. how can i get so they can hear them selfs so we dont have to crank it up so much we have 5 members of the band and we have a monitor for each of them. then we have two pa speakers. the two guitar players each have amps that we mike. the bar we are playing at is about the half the size of a basketball court with pretty high celling. i need your help with an easy way to get good sound. i am pretty new to the whole sound thing but i dont want to scare ppl off with our loud ass playing....
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MrVerylongusername
1737 posts
Jul 02, 2011
2:57 PM
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I'm a little confused; why do you mike the amps if they are too loud?
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colynjames
21 posts
Jul 02, 2011
2:58 PM
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Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Rolls-PM50S-Personal-Monitor-Amplifier/dp/B0002BG2SQ
Works great for keeping guitar players happy with hearing themselves. They will need some earbuds or phones or something, but your stage volume can be turned way down in most cases, and they can crank their guitars in their own ears if they want to. Then your sound guy has a much easier time of it getting the overall sound mixed well. Our drummer actually uses this unit as a personal monitor instead of a stage wedge, and it works great for him. Our guitar player used it for awhile and it helped.
If you have a guitar player that needs to crank the amp for the tone, see what you can do about baffling it or enclosing much of the cabinet and just mic the speaker. Some amps can be on 3 or 4 on the dial and blow you away, and they need similar treatment, or should be lined out if possible.
I'm glad that you are concerned about this. I played a show one time as a BENEFIT concert. Our volume was pretty good and we had a good crowd in front of us. Then the hard rockers and screamo guys came on after us, and most of the crowd moved to the rear of the room, or outside. They could not carry on a conversation in the same room. Because it was a benefit, that's not good! Many people left when the next couple of bands played. If it's uncomfortable for the audience, they won't stay, and they won't like you. Guitar players and young guns...please take notice of this. You aren't playing stadiums, you don't need stadium gear and volume. Your sound guy can make you sound huge without your dual stack of 4X10 speaker cabs and 400 watt heads. While we're on it...hey harp guys...why even try to compete with those amps? I hear so many people say you can't gig with a small amp. Ever hear of an instrument mic? A good quality amp with good tone is all you need. Your sound guy can make you loud if necessary.
Then there is the matter of actually listening...which most people playing in amateur bands have a problem with. Most of us are so concerned with hearing ourselves, we don't listen to the rest of the band and really consider the mix. We don't REALLY listen, and we all end up saying, "turn me up in the monitor", and it turns into an extremely loud stage experience. Especially since after the sound guy is done mixing, we go over and tweak our amps a bit higher again...
Anyway, there are ways to deal with loud stage volume that can bring that volume down. A really good sound guy will help you if you will just listen to him. It probably won't go that well if you are going to try it on the next show, because you really should be rehearsing the same way. Rehearse at lower volumes, get used to listening and getting a real feel for the music. Let your guitar players get used to the idea that you don't have to feel the wind from their amps to hear them. I know it's hard, but if you are there to entertain the audience, and not just massage yourselves, you can do it.
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Greg Heumann
1164 posts
Jul 02, 2011
3:39 PM
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Ask your guitar players if they actually want a harp player in the band and why. If the answer is yes, then explain the physics of microphones vs. guitar strings meaning they can always get louder than you - and they'll just have to come down. Any guitar player who ays they can't get good tone unless their amp is cranked is full of bullshit. I know lots and lots and lots of good guitar players who have great tone at reasonable (I don't mean quiet either) performance volumes.
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/Greg
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waltertore
1471 posts
Jul 02, 2011
3:44 PM
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There is only one solution-everybody turn way down. welcome to the world of live music. I have seen basement amatuers to grammy winners blast so loud it hurt to be around. IMO playing at a level where people cant converse shows a complete lack of depth as a musician. When I play with others they either work at my volume which is basically conversation level onstage or we don't work together. I hate to say it but the odds are like 10,000 to 1 that your group will never turn down. You would have to super glue the knobs on their guitars and amps. I have seen countless players do sound checks and a the first song or two at a decent level and then it just goes to ear piercing levels. Drink, drugs, and a drunk crowd fuel this stuff as well. It isn't about them personally, just that is the general deal whenever people play music live.
I learned firsthand from being around willie nelsons band and some of the old blues guys about onstage volume. Willies band can easily converse onstage. That makes for great dynamics and music. Good luck. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2011 3:55 PM
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didjcripey
108 posts
Jul 02, 2011
3:51 PM
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Good luck!
I (and I'm sure many others) have been dealing with this for years.
In my band, our first set starts out sweet, and my little five watt valve amp is perfect for the room we play in at 3/4 volume. After the first and second breaks when everyone is juiced up, the two guitarists cannot help themselves and crank it to painful volumes. My amp at full bore, miked through the PA becomes useless and the whole thing becomes a shambles. Even the drummer says its too loud and he can't hear himself. At this point I no longer make any attempt to be heard.
I think its a reflection on the musicianship of the players. As far as I can tell, a really good guitarist doesn't have to crank his amp to get good tone. I have friends in Sydney who are professional musos, love their guitars, love their amps and (in the studio) I can jam with them acoustically if I want and still be heard.
I don't think anything is going to help except a change in attitude, but maybe you could try having the guitarists amps in front of them, tilted up like a wedge monitor and not miking them. Give them nothing in the foldback, so if they want to hear the rest of the band they have to play quieter.
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Lucky Lester
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waltertore
1473 posts
Jul 02, 2011
3:57 PM
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Lucky Lester: I have been onstage with greats that blasted so loud it hurt- albert collins, buddy guy, roy buchanan, chris duarte, SRV, are just a few that come right to mind. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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jbone
559 posts
Jul 02, 2011
4:17 PM
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to me it usually starts with teh drummer being heavy handed, and this encourages the guitars to get louder. many bands i've worked with had that sort of issue. i'm with greg on this, if the guitarists want a harpman 0on board, they will turn down some.
the famous question has been for years: why go in a place with arena sized sound gear to play a small or medium room? it's always a recipe for disaster.
last year i did gig with my 40w 4x10 bassman and actually got asked to turn down! but i made the point.
i can remember guys using a bassman for both guitar and vocals and the harp guy with a champ or princeton, even a pignose 7-100, and being heard. that was when most people couldn't afford p.a. gear at least where i lived at the time.
these days i like a good jam with a band but for the everyday music fix my wife and i have a duo. we can play total acoustic or fully amped and p.a.'d. we don't need huge watts. if people want to hear us better they can just come on down close!
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oldwailer
1659 posts
Jul 02, 2011
4:34 PM
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If they can't balance the sound of the band and make it fun and painless to be around--they ain't really musicians--I don't care what their names are--of course that's just my opinion--but I'd just stop showing up for a band that I found obnoxiously loud--or if I couldn't hear myself--I mean--what's the point of being there if you can't be heard??
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Oldwailer's Web Site
Always be yourself--unless you suck. . .
-Joss Whedon
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toxic_tone
224 posts
Jul 04, 2011
9:10 AM
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well, this is what ended up happening Saturday night.
me and the drummer got there early and did a sound check our selves we did the instruments when jimbo and erok got there. now i talked to the bar owner while no one was around and told her if it was loud to come tell erok but to be very stern about it. well she came up and pretty much said if its not turned down that we could leave. well low and behold the volume came down to near perfection. harmonica was AWESOME. and guitars where really really really good. drummer was told as well to try and be a little quieter. thanks guys for the advice i really needed it so as to figure out what to do. everything worked out and im currently looking for some of the equipment that y'all suggested
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toxic_tone
225 posts
Jul 04, 2011
9:12 AM
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@verylongusername not sure still trying to figuer that out right now. im pretty new to the whole sound shit.
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harmonicanick
1241 posts
Jul 04, 2011
10:03 AM
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Any guitar player who ays they can't get good tone unless their amp is cranked is full of bullshit. I know lots and lots and lots of good guitar players who have great tone at reasonable (I don't mean quiet either) performance volumes.
I say Ay, Ay, Ay, to that statement!!! Toxic, do not stand for it, or get a Fender Bassman RI and mic the mother up as well. It will cost you a lot of money unless you deal with it.
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toddlgreene
3101 posts
Jul 04, 2011
10:08 AM
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Get a bullet mic-the biggest, heaviest one you can find. Why, you ask? Because they're heavy and easy to swing and hit guitarists who have volume issues.
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Todd L. Greene
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nacoran
4289 posts
Jul 04, 2011
10:48 AM
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Remember, drums are often the underlying source of loud. Some of the electronic drum kits are getting pretty good and you can adjust them to whatever volume you want!
It sounds like you handled it well.
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Nate
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toxic_tone
226 posts
Jul 04, 2011
12:25 PM
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@toddlgreene lmao hahhaahhahah
@nacoran thanks yea it worked pretty good. i dont plan on staying with them very long.
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MrVerylongusername
1740 posts
Jul 04, 2011
1:04 PM
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This article :
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/articles/guitartech_0708.htm
should be require reading as part of a compulsory guitar driving license. It's about studio sound, but a great deal of it - particularly the stuff about dynamics/arrangements - apply to live sound too.
The irony is that most of the recorded 'huge guitar sounds' that your average guitar-god wannabes are trying to emulate, comes from small amps driven hard, or nowadays, a protools plugin.
Anyway... the reason for micing an amp onstage should only be to let the soundman control the sound. It doesn't matter what instrument it is (but guitarists seem to be the worst for it) volumes creep as ears fatigue. The soundman is in a far better position to judge the overall sound than anyone on stage. If the backline is too loud - it's effectively pointless, he can't mix anything anymore.
If you don't have a soundman, it's a really dangerous game. Those volume knobs will go up and the PA is going to make it even louder with noone there to control it. If you are running your own sound, the whole band has to be disciplined - set levels at soundcheck using the loudest patches (no surprises when the guitarist kicks in his overdrive and tone boosters) - build in some headroom for control at the instrument end and leave the amps alone for the rest of the night.
For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of in ear monitoring too for 2 reasons:
1. everyone gets a clear mix and has no excuses not to hear themselves
2. Good ear buds seal off most of the on-stage mid-high "mush" that causes the ear fatigue and leads to volume creep.
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MrVerylongusername
1741 posts
Jul 04, 2011
1:22 PM
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Another thing... off on a tangent...
it's been pointed out, the drums, as the loudest acoustic instrument, set the onstage volume. It is no surprise to me that the most successful rock drummers: Keith Moon, John Bonham, Charlie Watts, all started out in jazz outfits or were heavily influenced by jazz drummers. The best drummers I've ever worked with were jazz trained. It's the discipline, the ability to play with a lighter touch and the understanding of dynamics that makes all the difference.
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harmonicanick
1243 posts
Jul 04, 2011
2:52 PM
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well said mrV
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