kudzurunner
2532 posts
Jun 16, 2011
7:20 PM
|
I'm going to risk a dangerous sort of honesty here for the sake of seeing what Walter, BBQ Bob, and others think about the following proposition. I'll be slightly coy, too; I won't name the club or the city. (If I take the gig, that will become obvious.) If you figure out the name of the venue--and that's possible--please don't spill the beans until the gig is locked in place, or turned down.
Satan & Adam have been offered a gig in a Florida city. The gig would be on a Saturday in late July at a big bluesy venue that can justly call itself "the premier live music venue" in that particular town--or one of the premier live music venues.
The booker, approached by Kevin Moore, had never actually heard of Satan & Adam. He's been in the business for a long time. But Kevin sent him a bunch of links and the guy is intrigued.
He's intrigued enough that he's willing to give us the gig. But here's the catch, or the several catches:
1) He wants to know if we have two full hours (2 x 60 minute sets, presumably) of live material. We do, especially if I supplement the trio stuff with a bit of OMB stuff
2) Assuming we've got two hours' worth of music, he still doesn't think we have sufficient pull to make the gig on our own, so he wants to supplement us with an older (80+ y.o.!!) blues artist. He wants us to co-bill, and split the door
3) NO GUARANTEE. We play for the door--and split the door with that artist. But:
4) He takes the first $200 that comes through the door to pay for "the soundman and the sound system." He claims that he rents the sound system.
Some people would turn and run. My initial response has some "flee" in it, but a number of other considerations are at work.
1) Does the club have a built-in Saturday night audience? It's located in a coastal Florida city, so Saturday night might see a lot of bikers and other neo-pirates showing up regardless of who's playing. The idea of playing for the door isn't innately silly, for example, if 150 people tend to walk through the door on any given Saturday night
2) What's the cover charge? Are we talking 100-150 bodies at $10 a head, or at $5 a head? Makes a big difference
3) We've got a new album out. Radio airplay could make the gig happen
4) Is the booker telling the truth about the co-bill and the amount of music expected of each act? If we're truly co-billing, then the other guy would be doing 2 x 60 minute sets too, right? This would be a 5-hour gig with 4 x 60 sets and 20 minute breaks. 8-1 or 9-2. But if it's only a four-hour gig, all told, then we're being asked to play two sets and the other guy is playing one set. Are we getting 2/3 of the money, then?
5) Is the booker telling the truth about the sound system? I don't doubt that the sound man needs to be paid--many clubs give the sound guy $100 or $150 for the night--but the part about expecting the door to pay, in addition, for the RENTAL OF THE SOUND SYSTEM is the one thing that truly sticks in my craw. It's hard to imagine that the "premier live music venue" expects such a thing. Don't they OWN their own PA? As Charlie Hilbert would say, I wasn't f--king born yesterday.
6) All that being said, Sterling Magee isn't getting any younger, and we don't have any other gigs on the calendar. Seems to me that he deserves to shine. So I'm willing to drive many hundreds of miles each way--leave Friday, play on Saturday night, drive home Sunday--for the sake of that thrill.
I've analyzed the plusses and minuses at length because this is what working musicians do. Some gigs are no brainers, but most gigs involve a whole series of sliding scales. It's about getting paid, sure, but occasionally that is NOT the primary consideration. South x Southwest doesn't pay; the Folk Alliance doesn't pay; but everybody wants to play those gigs because they certify you and give you increased visibility.
In this case: hey: big showcase venue in a significant Florida city on a Saturday night with a new album hitting the market. Why not?
So analyze away. Tell me what you think. Do so quickly, though, because I'll be making the decision within 24 hours of this post.
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2011 7:23 PM
|
Diggsblues
810 posts
Jun 16, 2011
7:48 PM
|
As it's stated now there are too many variables.
Normal booking is on the percentage of the gig.
If it was a city that has a lot of people that know
of you like philly and come out to support you
sure but as stated too much could go wrong as
far as money loss. Pro gigs spell most of everything
out in the contract.It would be ashame if you played to
an empty room. I would check it out thoroughly to see
if the room has a built in audience. A little search about the agents reputation and room can help. See who played there and maybe you know them and you can talk to them about the room. Traveling that far with no money guarantee seems risky to me.
----------
Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
|
waltertore
1416 posts
Jun 16, 2011
7:50 PM
|
Hi Adam: I hear you. Not being a regular touring act, an out of state gig in well known club is always tempting. I say if you both really want to play go for it. If not, those long hours will turn into a bad scene...... Playing an individual gig so far away makes driving that far a big factor right off the bat. The soundman thing is something I have encountered on and off beginning in the late 70's on bleeker street NYC. That and the you pay x amount for a roll of tickets and sell them for as much as you like at the door, were both going on then. Most big cities bigger clubs have pulled that soundman thing over the years on non major draw bands. It covers their butts if no one shows up Even if you guys are a big hit, the odds of anything more than a return engagement a few months down the road are unlikely. Without industry support behind you, these radom gigs will appear but not connect to making these treks finacially or physically (driving for hours on end) very profitable. I have had this same problem for years with getting back overseas. There is sporadic interest but not enough to make it anything but a I pay to play vacation. Same with the big USA. I could have played the russian river jazz and blues festival a few years ago but no other gigs could be found. To go there from OH would have cost me to play. I would consider this. If you really want to gig, get Sterling some gigs around where he lives. He seems a bit frail and that kind of long shot traveling can really wear a person out. Local gigs let him get out onstage and he can sleep in his own bed and not be put through those long hours of driving, and the inevitable problems that will appear with being in a new club. Lately I have been getting more and more comfortable with letting the easy things in and sidestepping the complicated ones. I wish I had done that years ago, but like the blues song says "in my younger days if I knew then what I know now....." Follow your hearts! Walter
----------
walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2011 7:52 PM
|
Mojokane
411 posts
Jun 16, 2011
8:04 PM
|
yeah...exposure is a big plus..eh? Do it once...enjoy yourself...then you'll know what the score is. And then, or..
Make a counter offer, and stick to it.
---------
Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
|
Joe_L
1298 posts
Jun 16, 2011
8:11 PM
|
You need a spreadsheet and some of your unknown questions answered.
1. Not all clubs that have music have their own PA. Offer to bring your own PA. See what they say.
2. If it's a well known club, google them. See what they typically charge for a cover.
3. Use your connections to find out what kind of draw that room has on a Saturday night. If your connections don't play there, start networking.
4. Do you know the radio stations in the area? Do they have any Blues radio shows? Do you know the DJs? Ask them. If not, start making phone calls. DJs tend to be helpful as they are usually fans of the music. Have you sent them a promo CD?
5. What's the bookers take?
6. Who is the co-bill? Is he someone that you've wanted to meet? What's his draw like?
7. What's the monetary spilt with him? Is he bringing a band? Who are the sidemen? If so, how much will they make?
8. What's your out of pocket cost to make this happen?
9. Are they paying for rooms and are you getting fed? How much will you have to pay for gas?
10. You need more information to know if you can make this profitable. Are you willing to do it at a loss for the publicity?
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
bigd
320 posts
Jun 16, 2011
8:46 PM
|
Pragmatically speaking I'm surprised you don't have a connection who could give a generic crowd speculation to the night. And pragmatically speaking driving hundreds of miles seems like way too much effort for a speculative financial reward. Nevertheless there seems to be another currency with more value influencing you. My intuition tells me if you flipped a coin (heads I go and tails I don't go) and it came up tails you'd be relieved; But if it came up heads you'd be happier! If you are anything like me (and I don't mean"harmonically" because we both know you're an Olympian relative to me) the gig money is more reflective of respect than financial gain per se..... I get a decent salary from Ashford & Simpson for my work with them but it doesn't put a dent in the child support, etc. What it does do is convey respect and integrity. p.s. I'm not minimizing the cost of gas or the need for money for moneys sake. Rather I'm expressing an intuition about a suspected subtext I read in your query. With respect. d
----------
myspace facebook
|
Jehosaphat
61 posts
Jun 16, 2011
9:05 PM
|
I think bigD has summed it up with his tossing the coin analogy.Lets face it if you were only in it for the money you wouldn't even be considering the Gig.
As Joe says check out the place/people as much as you can but in the end i reckon go with your gut feeling.
Hope it goes well ;-)
|
apskarp
481 posts
Jun 16, 2011
10:13 PM
|
If playing is more important than money - why not? If money is more important than playing that deal sounds pretty bad to me. The club owner will get money from the drinks, it's bad excuse to take the first 200$ for the sound man. It seems that his not getting any monetary risks at all and leaving all of it to you (including your travelling costs)...
----------
Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
|
Johnny Charles
21 posts
Jun 16, 2011
10:30 PM
|
I used to play with a guy for a decade in South Fla. We rode together to hundreds of gigs up and down and across the coast. One day while we were reflecting back on all the different gigs and venues and festivals and partys...we came to realize that although the gigs were cool and paid well (most of them anyway) it was the ride to and from the gig that we enjoyed most. I last officially played with him in '99...but the memories from the journeys are worth more than the money earned. I say take the ride with an old friend and listen and share memories and make some new ones along the way. The gig will be rewarding...but the journey will last forever.
|
Mojokane
412 posts
Jun 16, 2011
11:13 PM
|
Don't it....don't it!!
200 for the sound man?...that's BS!
Are you even talking to the right guy?
They have no idea who you are...and frankly, that's the sucker wanna be 'deal'...tell em to fuck off!
Joe L had some pretty important questions, to ask yourself...
----------
Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
|
Oisin
827 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:39 AM
|
Hey Adam,
I don't know dick about gigging and such as I'm just a jam player but I read this the other night and it might help in making your decision....
"When faced with two choices simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you but because in that brief moment when the coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping for."
----------
Oisin
|
Littoral
299 posts
Jun 17, 2011
3:59 AM
|
No.
I didn't call that easily but the red flags are lined up.
Doing shows with Satan does need to happen. Some things are priceless -that includes integrity and this gig costs too much.
Plan and route a road trip you can enjoy.
|
KingBiscuit
54 posts
Jun 17, 2011
4:32 AM
|
I think BigD hit this one squarely on the head.
If you are taking this gig simply to make money, I believe you will be disappointed. If it were only about the money, this thread would be non-existent!
Oisin's quote "When faced with two choices simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you but because in that brief moment when the coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping for." is absolutely perfect for this situation and so many others.
Dan
|
kudzurunner
2535 posts
Jun 17, 2011
5:02 AM
|
I should clarify: It's not about the money at all. Even in the best case scenario, given the number of miles I'm driving, I'll break even. At most, given the split with a second act and the three-way split in the band, I'll net what? $100? Best case scenario, I'm guessing, is....well, I don't know. 150 at the door, $10 a head: $1500, minus $200 for the sound, divided by two: $650 per act. Divide that $650 by three. $217. Plus I'll sell a handful of CDs. I'll be driving at least 1400 miles, total. It's not about the money.
It's more about the intangibles--giving a moment in the sun to Sterling and promoting the album, primarily--and about integrity. The gig as it's been laid out to me sounds like a vanity gig. Littoral has phrased things nicely: integrity is priceless. It's just as priceless as giving Sterling a moment in the sun. Or is it? At what point does a musician say, "You know what? It feels better just to stay home"? The quandary balances on that fine point. And I know I'm not alone in making these sorts of complex assessments.
Part of integrity is the process. As a result of this thread (especially Joe L's great list of questions) and my own ruminations, I sent Kevin a list of questions that I felt needed to be answered before I could objectively assess the offer. I asked about dinner and drinks. I asked about how long the gig was (4 or 5 hours total), whether the other act was co-billing with us--in which case I'd expect that he, too, was being asked to play 2 x 60 sets in exchange for his 50% split--or opening for us (in which case I'd expect him to play 1 x 60 and take only 1/3 of the door net). Let's all be professionals here. I'm a self-respecting professional. If I'm going to take a gig that I know it advance will net me nothing, I have the right, at the very least, to know the actual parameters of the gig.
Finally, in my email to Kevin, I made clear that this was NOT a vanity gig, and that I expected the club to show what I'd call a basic minimum interest in, and respect for, the act. A club does that by acknowledging that even though they haven't heard of the act and aren't sure of what kind of pull the act has in the area, they believe that the club and the act can partner to make a great gig happen.
I put all this into an email to Kevin and asked him to share it with the club. I was respectful and professional. I made clear that I wanted to take the gig but needed more information before I could objectively assess it on the merits. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks for the great feedback.
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2011 5:05 AM
|
waltertore
1417 posts
Jun 17, 2011
5:36 AM
|
Adam: One last thing. I spent decades bouncing all over the globe with gigs like this. You have surmized the $ end well- break even at best. The exposure for your album will be minimum even with radio/tv stations getting onboard. Anyway, my conclusion from thousands of these kind of gigs is this-your time would be better spent working on getting a buzz going with the media and this will attract management that can put together clusters of gigs in regions. Less overall travel, more money, less legwork on your end (contacting the medias is a lot of hassle), and quality gigs/accomodations mapped out for you. You are with a older black bluesman. That is still very marketable in the blues world today especially overseas. The downside is your day gig. Agents don't want to hear "I am only available such and such dates". This interests me because I am in a somewhat similar situation with my day gig. I am putting wishes out to the universe that there is an agent out there that will take this scenario on. The upside is you seem ok with doing the internet networking for gigs. Maybe that is the only way for now to get things going. Again good luck and follow your heart! Walter
----------
walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2011 5:44 AM
|
CamiloHarper
85 posts
Jun 17, 2011
5:37 AM
|
Very interesting topic Adam. I read everyone's answer.
Difficult multiple choices kind of deal. Well, I think being sincere and asking as much as you wanted to know was the best thing you could have done. That way you will be relieved even if the gig works or not.
It it doesn't you will now that these people aren't serious, but it it does, well at least it will be less risky for you and Mister Satan.
As for publicity, use your networking knowledge. Look for harp players in this forum that belong to this area, ask them for advice (and help), sends emails, create a facebook page with the date of the gig and additional info. Promote songs etc...
--Remember that some days ago a teenager girl for germany created a party event in facebook for her birthday, he forgot to make it a private event and 1000 persons!! showed in her house!! (and started a riot, and a cop was hurt etc..)
It's never well to understimate the power of internet.
----------
With some latin flavour for you, chico!! :P
|
LIP RIPPER
450 posts
Jun 17, 2011
7:06 AM
|
You haven't been down here in a long time!
LR
|
barbequebob
1665 posts
Jun 17, 2011
7:30 AM
|
Even on a local level, I've seen plenty of BS like that, tho usually on an off night more than anything else as opposed to a weekend night. I would do more research on the club and get in touch with as many bands (bandleaders, obviously), who've played there to start with before doing anything.
Media blitz is important and not just the blues shows, but ALL area media within 200 miles and be a polite pain in the ass and push hard.
There's no easy solutions here. Going on the road for a door gig is something I'm not wild about and generally would avoid like the plague if the place doesn't have a built in crowd, and VERY FEW places of ANY genre have that anymore.
There are tradeoffs and visibility is an important consideration and I've done some festivals for practically nothing and got some exposure for it.
In the final analysis, only you can make that decision.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
5F6H
732 posts
Jun 17, 2011
7:40 AM
|
"4) He takes the first $200 that comes through the door to pay for "the soundman and the sound system." He claims that he rents the sound system." Surcharges like this for "pay on the door gigs" are not that uncommon. The booker may or may not work directly for the venue, he may be one of many promoters who just has a weekly/monthly event there. In which case it's not that unusual if he has to face overheads for "room hire/bar staff/soundman/security" etc.
|
jawbone
445 posts
Jun 17, 2011
8:11 AM
|
I would maybe start from the position - "Does Mr. Satan feel like it is a good gig and is it worth doing?"
----------
If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
|
Jaybird
237 posts
Jun 17, 2011
8:34 AM
|
Forget the money. Go. Have a good time with your old friend. That is more important.
|
Harphound
12 posts
Jun 17, 2011
8:38 AM
|
I pass on gigs like that.The distance you must travel I say with no gaurantee is not worth the risk.A few clubs in our area try this( band must pay doorman and soundman for a split).How do you know the doorman is honest?I always say we will provide sound & doorman no club has taken that yet so we pass.My thought is the band only takes a risk,why doesn't the owner take a risk? Good Luck on your end I smell a rat.
|
kudzurunner
2536 posts
Jun 17, 2011
8:56 AM
|
Well, the guy wrote me back and addressed all my concerns in a professional manner. He also dropped one bombshell: the club capacity is 700. That makes a huge difference. That means that the right media blitz actually might be able to make us some money. If you do 400 people at a $7 ticket (and he recommended $7 advance / 10 day of show), that's $2800. Next to that, $200 for the soundman and his PA system doesn't sound unreasonable. In fact, 250 @ $8 a head (figure mostly advance sales, just for the heck of it, but some $10 at the door) nets us $900 at a 50/50 split after sound.
He said we needed to pull 200 just to hit HIS break-even point.
He's giving us $16 for dinner plus half-priced drinks.
I've written back and accepted the gig. Now I'll work it hard.
|
CamiloHarper
86 posts
Jun 17, 2011
9:33 AM
|
Glad to ehar that mister Adam.
We want videos!!
And now what yo have to do is to promote the gig!!
PD: About the musical quality there is no doubt is gonna be great
----------
With some latin flavour for you, chico!! :P
|
Swezey8
87 posts
Jun 17, 2011
9:36 AM
|
Great news Adam! Glad that all worked out and Satan gets some more time in the limelight.
Don't know if the venue name is still being withheld but the logistics of the gig sound awfully familiar. Idk if this venue is in the Tampa area or not- but if so I think I know the place...
|
Shredder
277 posts
Jun 17, 2011
10:30 AM
|
Adam, I drove 8 hours to get to HCH 1&2. Sterling may not be hear much longer. Who cares if you turn a dollar, seize the moment and get back with your old friend. It's just money, ya can't take it with ya when your numbers up! :)
Mike
|
LIP RIPPER
451 posts
Jun 17, 2011
10:52 AM
|
Okay AG, now where are Deedie and I going to see this show?
LR
|
toxic_tone
184 posts
Jun 17, 2011
12:56 PM
|
well i want to finally meet you if that is possible. ill bring a small crowd with me. my girlfriend her friends and some of my friends. can you please tell me where this is? i live in florida so its kinda like fate. lol. and maybe you will have more time to talk then john popper lol jk jk. i know if your tired you wont have time but i still want to come out and see you. let us know the venue and the time and date. thanks adam cant wait!!!!
|
kudzurunner
2537 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:07 PM
|
When the gig is confirmed, I will delete this thread and post a gig-alert in a new thread. I'd rather not associate the frank (and needed) talk in this thread with a gig that I've accepted and am committed to--i.e., with the name of the club. I hope that makes sense. I wasn't trying to diss any particular individual, just suss things out. Now that I've done that and am satisfied, this thread didn't happen. Expect it to be deleted soon.
|
toxic_tone
186 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:42 PM
|
we understand
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
699 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:45 PM
|
Is this 80 yr old guy any good? Does he play well with others? There are a lot of guys out there who sound great solo and everybody thinks he's the dog's dangles, but they can't keep a steady sense of time for anything and they train wreck you the whole night. I'll leave the $$ questions to Walter and Co... That would be my concern, getting some exposure out of this and have somebody wrecking you on stage.
----------
David
Elk River Harmonicas
Elk River Harmonicas on Facebook
"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2011 1:47 PM
|
walterharp
611 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:51 PM
|
it was mentioned before, but since you are taking it, be certain to get someone you know to take the money at the door...we have done gigs like this and the doorman let in too many friends and pretty girls without paying, the club owner should not mind, as he takes no risk with this. also, you can check with the sound guy what he gets and give it to him directly.
|
LIP RIPPER
452 posts
Jun 17, 2011
1:52 PM
|
Ain't gonna be no stage wreck. Sterling gigs or at least was every tuesday with Dave, his drummer and they have their act together.
"Even if they have to tell a lie to do it"!
LR
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2011 1:58 PM
|
