silpakorn
63 posts
Jun 03, 2011
10:41 AM
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I have to confess that I'm not a big Little Walter fan, neither for his sound or music - don't really know why.. but anyway, lately I've decided to switch from mostly lip purse to tongue block and relearned quite a lot of stuffs and started to feel comfortable now, and just yasterday that I decided to give the song "Juke" a go because I thought it must be a great idea now that I can TB 80-90% of the time it must be about the right time to learn this song.. What I've found out is, of course it's fun and challenging :) but apart from this 2nd chorus that has never sounded right to my ears - that 2 hole riff ! So today I decided to sit down and figure out what's wrong with it and it turned out it has 3 beats missing ! It has 11 bars and 1 beat ! I'm just curious now if you guys have found out about this already ? I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else before.. personally I think LW messed up that riff and the band managed to catch him up a few bars later.
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tmf714
660 posts
Jun 03, 2011
11:05 AM
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The second chorus of "Juke" contains 11 1/4 bars.
The 6th bar contains three notes,the eighth bar contains 6 notes and the twelfth bar contains 4 notes.
There is one "ghost" note in the 6th bar,one in the tenth bar,and one in the twelfth bar.
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2011 11:06 AM
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arzajac
526 posts
Jun 03, 2011
11:10 AM
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No, he does not skip a beat. He rushes it and then pauses (let's a beat go by) to then catch up. It may or may not be voluntary. The fourth time he repeats it, it's on the one. The first time it's on the four. I'm having a hard time hearing it since I am at work, but it seems to me the second time, he's on the three and the third time on the two.
If you count the whole verse, there are 12 four-bar measures.
Edit - On second thought, I am not sure...
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Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2011 11:13 AM
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tmf714
661 posts
Jun 03, 2011
11:16 AM
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Check my post-the info was given to me by Joe Filisko.
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arzajac
527 posts
Jun 03, 2011
12:13 PM
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Now I'm sure I was wrong...
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harpoon_man
19 posts
Jun 03, 2011
12:46 PM
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Well, I’m not a little Big Walter fan, so I guess that makes us somewhat similar. Ha-ha.
Anyhow, the 2nd chorus of Juke was discussed in some detail on harp-L some years back, so you might search the harp-L archives for some information. I think the general consensus was that LW botched that chorus a bit, but the band was so focused on what LW was doing that they stayed right with him, and the end result was that the mistake(s) is almost unnoticeable until you actually count through the 12 bars. It’s a great lesson in how a band that listens can pull off just about anything.
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tmf714
662 posts
Jun 03, 2011
1:12 PM
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This may give you a small glimpse at what was happening in the studio-
The Little Walter session tapes
The "Juke" session. A 7" reel, not in the original tape box, but a photocopy of the original session log is with the tape. There’s no 'take one' on this reel, but it is a full reel, suggesting that T1 was not removed from the reel, but that the tape was rewound immediately after T1 (probably a breakdown), and it was recorded over. The first thing at the beginning of this tape is T2, which is the issued master take of "Juke", separated from the rest of the tape by white leader tape on both sides. Immediately before T3:
Jimmy Rogers: I’ll give you that boogie...
The take begins, with what sounds exactly like the issued alternate take, but instead of launching into the song after the repeated ‘stabbing’ intro, everyone just keeps on stabbing, apparently not knowing where to do the ‘stop’ where LW will then launch into the body of the song. They eventually falter, and everyone stops.
Elga: (Apologetically) I was off. [I assume this is Elga - it’s definitely not Muddy, Jimmy or LW.]
LW: (calmly) Ya see, if he’d a kicked it off right...we coulda made it, and I could given you the ‘bop bop bop bop bop ba BOP’ (describing the final hits before he launches into the body of the song.)
Muddy: When you give me the ‘bop bop bop BOP’...
Elga: Well, I’m watching your foot, when you start. Well, I’m gonna start with you this time, when YOU start.
[Walter seems to be in a good mood, speaking without any trace of irritation in his voice.]
The engineer (Putnam) calls Take 4 in the middle of the above discussion, and LW starts playing almost immediately, while Elga is still speaking, with no count in.
[My impression is that the first complete take, T2, must have been the best worked-out version - the one they were doing on the band stand - and that afterwards they decided to try and spice it up a little bit by adding in the new intro. It may have been felt that the new arrangement wasn’t tight enough or something, after trying it out a few times in the studio. At any rate, there are no further attempts at this after T4.]
After the take ends, a few seconds later you can hear what was on this reel before it was re-used for this Chess session - a commercial for “Lava” hand soap. A 1950s-style radio announcer can be heard for a few seconds saying “Lava soap gets out grease, grit from under the nails, and every other...” The next thing heard on the tape is the continuation of the LW session. Immediately before T1:
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tmf714
663 posts
Jun 03, 2011
1:20 PM
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From Randy G via Harp-l 2009-
There is an extant original recording of the Juke session. Evidently,
> only one variance was engineered in post for the pressing. I have
> heard three versions from that session iirc, and they are all
> different. The two that were not used were not the full tune as L.W.
> stopped part way through to give the band directions or make
> comments. IMO, L.W. had a direction he was taking with the tune, but
> it was more of a jam session than a scored piece, at least to say
> that this is a reasonable conclusion to reach after listening to the
> recordings.
>
> The missing beats (or change in time) was, again IMO, an accident.
> His band was so accustomed to playing with him they just followed
> along as opposed to L.W. following the band. I think you will find
> that Dave Barrett agrees with this (that is where I heard the
> recordnigs)- The School of the Blues sells a T-shirt that says, "I
> play Little Walter's Mistakes" which refers to the above.
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silpakorn
65 posts
Jun 03, 2011
5:47 PM
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@ tmf714, thanks for the info. Actually, it shouldn't really matter if you want to learn this song you can either correct it - make it 12 bars or improvise something over it, but it just bothers me too much so I wwanted to have it figured out before I move on with this song.
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tmf714
664 posts
Jun 03, 2011
6:13 PM
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Thats a great way to do it-I agree.
It's always good to have a little insight as to why certain songs sound the way they do-it's an integral part of keeping this kind of music alive.
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MP
1695 posts
Jun 04, 2011
3:37 PM
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-i bought a LW double album w/ juke. there was a scratch so the record skipped a beat about 3 bars in on the intro.
this made the song even harder to count. :)
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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bluemoose
564 posts
Jun 06, 2011
1:48 PM
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Here's a link to Glen Weiser's transcription of Juke:
Juke
note the changes at the top.
He has the second chorus drop into 3/4 for 3 bars. Also
the third chorus has a 2/4 bar in it.
It's worthwhile working on this note-for-note, to get the subtleties and read/work with a music score and tabs.
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2011 1:49 PM
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tmf714
665 posts
Jun 06, 2011
1:56 PM
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I prefer Joe Filisko's version-he is the man when it comes to Little Walter-there's none better.
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2011 1:59 PM
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silpakorn
66 posts
Jun 06, 2011
6:50 PM
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thanks bluemoose for the link but to be honest, I'm not sure you can use his transcription if you wanna learn it note for note. I see too many mistakes - I'm not a pro harper but a pro musician - his second chorus is completely lost. It has just one triplet in the second chorus but his transcription has seven !? and the rhythm is wrong from the very first bar of the chorus. Personally I believe that it's basically a predictable 2 bar phrase with the rest during the phrase that supposed to be right before the first 2 hole whole step bend but LW rushed, he skipped that rest makes the first phrase or the first 2 bar missed 1 beat and that's how mistake started. Anyway, I appreciate the helps but I think I'm gonna try to get through it using ears..
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colman
52 posts
Jun 14, 2011
8:36 AM
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most of the great blues players missed or added beats etc. just for the fact they were playing blues not classical music.i`m sure alot of beat counters wish they could play like all the original harp players who were into the blues language and singing it rather than counting it... it`s feel not math...
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5F6H
721 posts
Jun 14, 2011
9:09 AM
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"most of the great blues players missed or added beats etc." Typically not so much when playing in a band, more so when playing unnacompanied...even then there aren't really any harp players, specifically, that spring to mind. Which is probably why LW's isues with Juke, Just Your Fool, (Country Boy & I Just Want To make Love To You seem a bit harum scarem too, in terms of following the structure) garner so much attention.
I don't see that genre is particularly relevant in this case. If you're developing a number spontaneously in the studio, for release, people have to know where to be, or be prepared to follow the front man moment to moment (as they did with LW).
Howling Wolf to Eric Clapton - "Man, you don't have to do nothing just count" from the London Sessions (not verbatim, but you get the gist).
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barbequebob
1662 posts
Jun 15, 2011
7:43 AM
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LW also messed up the time on Shake Dancer as well and so many players who clone him also clone his screw ups and even on an instrumental that was never released for year, Don't Need No Horse, he does a screw upright in the opening verse. If harp players take the time to get their time straight (and FAR TOO OFTEN, the average player NEVER bothers with it or considers it to be particularly important, with the truth being that it is VERY IMPORTANT TO LEARN), they will hear this stuff in a heartbeat and those who don't will never have a clue.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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silpakorn
72 posts
Jun 15, 2011
8:14 AM
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@colman, I really just use a tiny bit of brain to count it though, man. I knew it has something wrong just by the feeling for the first time I've heard the song. I counted it because I wanted to know what was wrong, counting in four is too easy - can't help it, I'm happen to be a classical musician :) my heart never failed to catch the pulse/beats whenever I play or listen. It just an automatic process that I believe any good musician would have. I personally feel that I really couldn't learn trough the piece without having it figured out. I don't worship the masters mistakes, I don't copy them without knowing what it was. They were human and human make mistakes the better way to learn from their mistakes is to try to understand it first and then it's your choice to play it the way you want. I get what you say about playing by feel, that's definitely important but I'll do it after I do the math..
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