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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Half-valved playing technique / tips
Half-valved playing technique / tips
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mr_so&so
427 posts
May 04, 2011
10:52 AM
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There have been some really interesting threads here on half-valving and comparison to overbending for chromaticism, also off-shoots into various alternative tunings. I don't want to get into all that here.
I recently received a couple of factory-half-valved (PT style) Session Steel harps from Seydel (in Paddy Richter tuning). Tuning aside, I've started playing with the harps and am working out the bending technique.
I know that several players here, Sorin, Kyzer, Isaac and of course PT Gazell and Brendan Power are using half-valved harps (or some partial subset thereof). So perhaps this is a good opportunity to start a thread that just discusses how to get the most out of a half-valved harp.
As a rookie at this half-valved thing, I've been able to blow bend 1-6, but they seem a little sticky (hesitating). Also still working on getting to the bottom of those bends. Any advice?
On first attempts, I get nothing on the draw bends 7-10 (C harp). Perhaps I'm using too much air? How long should I give it before I start messing with gaps? Right now the 7-10 blow bends are great. How would I adjust the gaps up there to get the draw bends without messing up the blow bends?
First impressions, though, are good. It's cool to be able to put some inflection on those low blow notes.
Edited for some typos...
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Last Edited by on May 05, 2011 10:28 AM
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jim
811 posts
May 04, 2011
1:00 PM
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increase gapping
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Kyzer Sosa
973 posts
May 04, 2011
2:50 PM
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inflections, blow bends on the lower register, and that sweet sweet 7 hole draw bend, is the reason I play valved. granted, i dont have all the keys yet, but when i do, im all but done with unvlaved playing.
I had an unfair advantage with my first gazell harp, PT tweaked it himself.
theres really no way of explaining how its all done, i DO know that breath pressure plays a significant role in the "stickiness" of the notes. I have a valved promaster i broke my bread on and ive always felt like if i used it in a performance, that it would crap out on me. I dont feel that way with the seydels. you got a great instrument to learn on. just keep at it, it will come to you.
concentrate on intonation. i just practice sustaining blow bends.
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PT
89 posts
May 05, 2011
5:18 AM
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The first thing I try to relate to people interested in this technique is that if you can blow bend holes 8 9 and 10 and do it well....then you should be able to take that same technique and do it on holes 5 and 6. My biggest hurdle was to forget about the valves and that for 35 years I could not blow bend 5 and 6. In terms of the draw bends, try using less pressure till you get the feel for what is going on to achieve this bend. Only after that would I experiment with increasing the gaps. I have tried to work closely with Germany about this and the last two instruments I played were very very close to exactly what I do to mine. Play easy till you get the hang of it. And yes...once you get it you will not go back to conventional. If you are going to Hill Country Harmonica Festival 2011, I will be there and can answer questions in person.My new CD which ships May 12th "2 Days Out" employs not only half valved diatonics but low pitched ones. Pretty cool! Samples and ordering info is available at http://www.ptgazell.com
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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mr_so&so
428 posts
May 05, 2011
10:24 AM
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Thanks Kyzer and PT for your suggestions. I will be patient. I also received a half-valved D harp that seems to be responding a little easier than the C and the blow bends are coming nicely. It's the draw bends on 7-10 that are not happening for me yet. I am getting a squeal on some, similar to when you try to overdraw on a harp that is not set up for it. But I'll give it some time and try to back way off on the pressure.
I can already see that I'm going to like these harps though.
@PT Unfortunately I won't be at HCH. Wish I could make it. I will order a copy of your CD though.
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mlefree
42 posts
May 05, 2011
12:18 PM
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Here's something that might help.
Have you ever laid in a dentist's chair and had the hygienist rinse your mouth with a water spigot in one hand and a suction tube in the other? If so, imagine the action you went through inside your mouth to "push" the water out from the back of your mouth up to the very front where the suction tube finally retrieves the last little drop of water off the tip of your tongue. To me, "choking" the reed as in a valved bend is very much like that (but so is a blow bend on holes 8-10 :).
What happens is that you make your oral cavity smaller and smaller so as to no longer match the resonant frequency of the reed being played. The trick is avoiding choking the reed completely. Find that spot where you hit the flattened note perfectly and you can play chromatically. But you can also use the choking technique to great stylistic effect just like you do with your draw bends.
Thanks,
Michelle
Last Edited by on May 05, 2011 12:19 PM
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gene
752 posts
May 05, 2011
4:44 PM
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I had valves on some of my Pro Masters but I ripped them all out. Is there a material that could be used for valves that doesn't rattle?
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AirMojo
152 posts
May 06, 2011
4:31 AM
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@gene You can order the PT Gazell ultra-suede valves from Seydel... first go to PT Gazell's website at:
http://www.ptgazell.com/Seydel_Harmonica_Shop.html
and click on the "Seydel My Sound-My Sedel" logo.
Then on the Seydel website, search for "Gazell valves"... you should get a link that says "Set of valves for half- or full valving". You will get a bunch of pre-cut valves in different lengths.
Go to your local hardware or "Home Depot"-type store, and buy a bottle of "DAP Weldwood Contact Cement"... its a "rubber-based" glue that is easily applied and/or removed.
I used a toothpick to apply the "glue" to the end of a valve, positioned over the reed slot just below the rivet, with a slight space/air-gap on the other end of the reed-slot. You want the valve to lay as flat as possible over the reed slot.
There is an article on the Seydel website from the NHL Harmonica World about PT Gazell's half-valved harps and a photo of the half-valved reedplates at:
http://www.seydel1847.de/WebRoot/Seydel/Shops/Seydel/Download/Spezialanfertigungen/Halve-Valved-PT-SEYDEL.pdf
I am not a half-valved harp expert, but recently put the ultra-suede valves on holes 5, 6, and 7 on one of my Seydel 1847 A-harps, and I can get the new bent notes... I just need to practice and get use to them, which may take awhile.
Last Edited by on May 06, 2011 4:34 AM
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isaacullah
1486 posts
May 06, 2011
9:45 AM
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There is some really great advice on this thread! I only have one harp that I half-valved myself. I never had any trouble with draw bends, but since it was already gapped to my playing style (by me), I guess that might have had something to do with it. I must admit, I don't play it all that much, but I've definitely learned how to get half valved bends. Actually, I'm using the "half-valved" bend technique more on my new Bass harp, which only has one reed per hole (alternating blow and draw in each sequential hole). I find that I can get all the accidentals on this Sequence-tuned Bass harp by doing what are essentially "Valved" bends, and doing so has made it easier to play my actual half-valved harp. I can only tell you that for me, the "valved" bend occurs further forward in my mouth than do my normal bends. I'm not sure if this is what others do, or if it's totally eccentric to me, but that's how I do it...
Good luck!
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mr_so&so
430 posts
May 06, 2011
10:39 AM
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@Isaac, I've been wondering about this mysterious difference between valved (single-reed) bends and double-reed bends. Personally, I'm not feeling that much difference on the valved blow bends vs. double-reed blow bends. But maybe there is a big difference on the valved draw bends? That's were I'm getting the grief right now.
Thanks for everyone's advice. I'm more and more convinced that the gapping on my harps needs opening up. I got valving, plus a special tuning, so I'm thinking that they might have been done at different times by different people. About time to mess with some gaps.
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Last Edited by on May 06, 2011 10:47 AM
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Kyzer Sosa
974 posts
May 06, 2011
10:41 AM
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im gonna echo isaac on the positioning of the mouth on some of the blow bends, and even the draw bends. its as if youre trying to push a large wad of gum, that's on the tip of your tongue, through a straw. which is to say, you hold your tongue rigid, as if there were resistance from an outside force, or like what you do to prepare to blow a bubble. (lucky bubble)
all i know is, if you have a valved harp, and wanna play straight diatonic harp with some folks, and not even the harmonica pro next to you would ever know you have a valved harp in your hands, get one of the seydels with pt's valves and you'll be hooked.
because when you DO pull out those valved notes in your playing, well, the joes dont know, but the pros go whoa.
game changer for me? The 7D bend. You can do things with that note that's only in the pockets of select 6OB'ers
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"Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
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gene
753 posts
May 06, 2011
3:16 PM
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Thanks AirMojo.
I have tried to use Super Glue to replace a valve that came off. The glue instantly spread to the reeds and stuck them to the plate. Fortunately, the stuff can be scraped off of metal easily enough.
I've got the link book-marked now in case I want valves again some day. Do you have these valves? Do they rattle?
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PT
90 posts
May 08, 2011
6:47 PM
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I can promise you PT Gazell Valves DO NOT RATTLE! In addition they do not become stuck due to moisture or react badly when cold. Reed setup is as important for this technique as it is for overblowing. The technique itself should only take a short while if you are an acommplished bender of notes.
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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HarpMan Freeman
145 posts
May 08, 2011
7:32 PM
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Has anyone have any experience Half Valving a Golden Melody? Is there any advice in doing these particular harps?
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sorin
278 posts
May 09, 2011
7:20 AM
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Not long time ago I have ordered a half valved Solist Pro and an extra set of valves from Seydel ,the harp was bad ,so following PT's method , explained by him in different occasions , and repeated here by Airmojo , I made myself a half valved Sp20 .So Harpman just follow Airmojo's advice and you will be fine , get the right glue ( no superglue) .
I think despite PT's effort the HV Seydels might not be gaped according with his method, mine was gaped very low , the Sp20 I had to open the gaps quite a bit compared with what I saw on the factory valved Seydel , so mr.so&so you might have to listen to jim , and gap yours.
My experience was very similar with mr.so&so's , it was very easy to blow bend the first 6 holes , and more difficult to drawbend the 7 and 8. For me , like issacullah the drawbends are different on a double reed bend vs a single reed bend , the valved ones occurs more forward in the mouth , but probably now I can bend a 4 hole with the single reed bend mouth position , but not the other way around .So depending on where you came from you might or not have to adjust your mouth position . I can now bend the 7 and 8 draw , but I cannot just hit the bent note . so so&so you will get it , needs some practice though , and the other thing is that the reed needs some break in ,the reed is kinda stiff and it is not used to bend that way , so it gets easier in time.Also, I think your choice of harps will not help you with drawbending the 7 hole , you should go to lower keys (A, G), it should be easier to learn on that.
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mr_so&so
431 posts
May 09, 2011
10:18 AM
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Sorin, thanks for your experience and suggestions. The gaps on both my new Seydel harps are also very close. Also interesting that PT says that gapping on half-valved is as important as on overbend harps. This suggests that there is some skill required to get it just right. This is difficult for someone new to the valve-bending technique to begin with.
So on the weekend, I tried a few experiments. I opened the draw gaps a bit on 7-10 my new D harp, but this didn't help much. I started getting a lot of air leakage and this also killed my blow bends. So I closed them back down a bit, but still couldn't get the draw bends there. Maybe I need to keep working on the single-reed draw bend technique for a while.
I also got a spare set of valves from Seydel, so I decided to partially valve a couple of other harps. I have a Seydel Blues Favorite in G (also Paddy Richter), so I valved just the 3 draw (then the 3 blow bend gives the same note as 3''' draw bend on a Richter-tuned harp, which would otherwise be missing) and 7 blow (to try to emulate the 6ob, which I left in place for comparison). I left the gapping at first. Once the glue dried, I didn't have much luck, with either so will play with the gapping until I get those two notes. I'll post my results here.
The second thing I did was valve the 5 draw and 7 blow on a Richter-tuned Bb Big River that plays beautifully (but not set up for overblows) where the gaps are pretty wide. After that, the 5 blow bend was there, but the 7 draw still was not (well maybe I could get a bit of a bend, but also squealing). These are both holes where I can play with the gaps without messing up the harp. Again, I'll update here once I have figured this out.
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mr_so&so
439 posts
May 25, 2011
11:27 AM
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I said I'd update my progress with this half-valving thing, so here it is.
I had some fun with my partially-valved harps and deduced that the gaps on the non-valved reeds definitely have to be wider than on a standard OTB harp. But if you go too wide that's a problem too.
I then regapped my new harps, and they now play pretty well. I was finally able to get the draw bend on 7 (equivalent of 6OB) too. Still some tweaking to do on 8-10, tricker because I want to keep all the blow bends working. The 7d' note is achieved more forward in the mouth, as was suggested by some previous posters.
Anyway, I'm going to be happy with these harps. I can already play the blues scale in 3 octaves in first position. Very cool. Opens up a lot of new territory.
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HarpMan Freeman
148 posts
May 26, 2011
8:00 AM
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mr_so&so
Thanks for sharing your experience with 1/2 valving.
I am currently working on doing the same on 4 Golden Melodies.
I've have three suzuki's done and I've learned that if you have any part of valves slightly touching the comb through it entire motion can cause it to get stuck open.
The valve lays flat over the reed when you clue the end down. But if the clue is uneven the valve does hinge properly and when the valve hinges up and down within the hole the edge of the valve hits a side of the hole and sticks. So when you go for the blow-bend, it isn't there.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but I had to rework a few values because of it.
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Destin
31 posts
Jun 13, 2012
10:24 AM
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I have been wondering if the pt version of the silver harp sounds the same as the regular one
anyone know?
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PT
134 posts
Jun 13, 2012
7:38 PM
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How about if I answer that for you. The valves do change the sound of the diatonic a little. An easy way to describe it is to say it moves it slightly towards the sound of a chromatic. Note I said slightly....this is still a diatonic Richter tuned. You can do anything you did before the valves were installed...but in addition you can now blow bend holes 1,2,5,6 and draw bend holes 7,8 and 10 to get notes that were not available without doing over blows or over draws. But the other big thing it does with the valves is the ability to add emotion and shading to all 20 reeds on the instruments.
PT
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SergZZZ
39 posts
Jun 13, 2012
10:38 PM
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The use of valves on the high holes for me is not acceptable. OD is preferable. However, the low holes (1,2,3 or 2.3) I always use the valves. For reduction of losses of air and for the replacement of 1 OB.
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Destin
34 posts
Jun 14, 2012
5:58 AM
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Thanks PT I could tell something was different from a regular diatonic. For some reason I really like the tone on it for jazz. It seems to be a little rounder, a little les "harmonicaee" sounding.
Is there any difference between the PT silver and a xb40? Or any other valve diatonics out there?
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PT
135 posts
Jun 14, 2012
5:29 PM
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I think your assessment of the tone is correct...rounder and a little more focused or compressed because of the valves.
The XB-40 achieves the same result but by a different road. It is a more complex machine with enabler reeds that have 0 gap and windsavers. It is a much bigger instrument and does not in my opinion really sound like a diatonic. When I hear James Conway and Rick Epping and Winslow play it I understand its full potential. It has a unique tone that is not for everybody. Suzuki makes a half valved diatonic as well. What I feel the Gazell Method brings to the table is valves that do not rattle buzz or pop & are very resistant to moisture and temperature. The reeds are also set up just like my personal instruments which I feel are correct for half valved playing. More info on The Gazell Method instruments is available at http://www.ptgazell.com/Gazell_Method_Harmonics.html
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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barbequebob
1938 posts
Jun 15, 2012
7:27 AM
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What the valves do in terms of altering the tone is that what it does is dampen some of the upper harmonic overtones, and the majority of them are odd numbered, which can be quite harsh to the human ear, especially when played hard, and is a big reason for why ET diatonics have chords that beat like hell and can sound pretty harsh, and on chromatics, mainly all ET tuned, when playing a chord with valves, is far less harsh sounding, but the sound of the individual notes do change in tone. A similar thing happens with partially valved diatonics and when you hear a chord in ET tuning on a partially valved harp, it is less harsh and beats much less because of the valves.
The XB40 is a lot like what PT says and it's definitely not for a beginner and to get the most out of them, breath control is VERY important to a very hightened degree because they are very sensitive to the amount of force you use and that's why the average player has such a tough time with the bending on those harps. It's somewhere, tone wise, between a standard diatonic and a chromatic and if you're looking for a true diatonic sound with more bends, forget it because that ain't gonna happen and much like a chrmatic, you really have to think of it and treat like an entirely different instrument.
I've played the Toots Hard Bopper chromatic which has valves all the way up and the valves in the top octave give those instruments tremendous volume and tends to play more aggressively, tho you can't bend as much because all reeds are valved. In the case of the valving in the top end of the diatonic, you just have to take the time to shed with them and get used to it and make any and all necessary adjustments to make them work, just like any other instrument you play.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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