Shredder
253 posts
Apr 28, 2011
1:23 PM
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I'm delving into embossing.
#1 Question do you leave the reed in position and just slide your ball end tool over the reed & slot at the same time.
#2 do you just emboss 1/2 way up to the rivet?
#3 Do you emboss all 10 slots?
I have the gapping down now I'm moving to the next level.
Please help me side step some pitfalls.
Mike
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jim
807 posts
Apr 28, 2011
1:27 PM
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#1 - don't use the ball, use the new tool by Dick Sjoeberg or a knitting hook to emboss both sides independently.
#2 - full-slot embossing is surely better
#3 - yes, all 10.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Shredder
254 posts
Apr 29, 2011
4:52 AM
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Jim, thanks for the reply and the link. I saw the tuning fork video. I guess that was before Joes tool was out. I saw several things I was already doing so I was on the right path after all.
Mike
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MP
1653 posts
Apr 29, 2011
11:48 AM
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hey mike,
i recall doing 14 or 15 repairs for you a while back.
quite a few of your harps played really well.
anyway, if you are going to emboss i suggest you work on the least responsive harp in your collection.
this will give you a good idea as to how effective and/or whether embossing is really something you want to persue. tighter tolerances mean more stress and more stress can blow reeds. i'm sure you aren't playing as hard as you used to.
just a thought.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Shredder
255 posts
Apr 29, 2011
11:59 AM
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Hey, Mark. Yeah I have the gapping down. I just thought I would try and see if I could get more out of a few harps that didn't respond like I think they should. And yes I have really been trying to lighten up on my breath force. I thought closer fits would mean less effort to get the reeds going. Hey but like we used to say in the racing world "The faster they go the faster they blow" It just seems like a lot of effort embossing with just a slight improvment, but hey every little thing adds up to make a bad ass motor.
Mike
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MP
1654 posts
Apr 29, 2011
3:04 PM
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actually mike, embossing, like you say is one more thing that adds up to a bad ass motor.
it changes the harps tone slightly. people-i do too- say it makes them sounds brassy. one can hear extra overtones. they do get louder faster. and are more efficient.
you might try flat sanding your bottom reed plates. this makes for a less leaky harp. check out kinya pollard in mel bays harmonicasessions on line mag.
pollard does a feature called monster harmonica work bench.
one last thing. embossing, like playing harp, has a learning curve. even in pollards review of the UST he points out over-embossing and how to remedy it. over embossing can be done with any tool.
i hope i don't sound like a know it all gasbag. i've worked on your harps and have a very good idea of how you play.
i could send you a custom SP/20 i embossed amongst other things to give you an idea of the results.
it's good to know the goal one wants to achieve when tweaking.
you hit the jackpot on some great OOB GMs and SPs.
how is your pre-MS meisterklasse working out?
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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chromaticblues
806 posts
Apr 29, 2011
5:14 PM
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@ Shedder There's someone here that will understand this. Shedder think of embossing like doing work the heads of a motor. Its all air flow. On a high performance motor you try to increase air flow. In a high performance harp we try to decrease air flow. There are two things that must be dealt with. 1st air leakage and 2nd air flow efficiency. Air leakage is basically putting it together right. If it has screws starting from the middle and working your out tightening. Not overtightening! I use different sealants to prevent any leakage. Then embossing to most people is for air efficience, but it also affects air flow direction! Once the reed is started and air is flowing how the air flows thru the slot can affect how stable the reed is (or the note being played no matter the technique being used)
Ok Think about this. Would you do a valve job on haed using one angle then another head using a different angle. Answer NO thats stupid! So why would anyone emboss a slot with a tool that doesn't guarantee the angle on both sides is the same?
OK another thing to think about is the thickness of the reedplate is partly responsible for a harps volume. So the angle that you emboss will effect air flow and the thickness of the reedplate (on the sides anyway). So with that in mind try not to go in at to steep an angle.
So maybe a tool that gives you the same angle on both sides and not to steep of an angle.
If I tell you what to do you might stop thinking about it. This way maybe you'll find a better way than I did!
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MP
1656 posts
Apr 29, 2011
7:12 PM
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well said chro.
angle is super important. if it is too steep your harp will not improve and may play worse.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Shredder
256 posts
Apr 30, 2011
9:09 AM
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@MP, I had an old S/P20 I reworked the day before I started this topic.The plates were very tarnished covers rusty, out of tune and very airish. I did the bar keepers friend treatment and the reed plates and covers cleaned up nicely. I embossed all the slots 3/4 to the rivet with a ball ended punch.Harbor freight sells a set of these. I think they call them doming tools. Any way I over did it on several slots and had hell getting the reed to plink freely. Finally I got them all done and then started the tuning, what a bitch! Almost every reed had to be adjusted. After finishing it plays way better than it did before but my G/M's still play better. The gap from the reed tip to the slot is to wide IMO. I'm going to try to close them up some.
Yes I would like to have a harp in the same key to compaire a properly embossed one to. I'll contact you off line.
@ CB Kevin thanks for the details. I guess you could say embossing bumps up the compression and the angle makes for better flow,"aka 3 angle valve job".
I'm a machinist and could make a tool but it looks like Joe has come up with a good tool for this job. Some times it's easier to just buy the tool than make one"I'm lazy some times"
I thought if the angle or clearance on the reed was diffrent/ unequal it could make the reed twist when in motion and squeel. I under stand the need for the same angle.
Thanks for the input. This kind of information is what makes this fourm so great to be a part of.
Mike
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MP
1657 posts
Apr 30, 2011
10:57 AM
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mike,
i have a D SP/20 i could send you if you want to reverse engineer it. i can't spare other keys at present.
this is a sweet harp. very responsive and it cuts like mad. i think having a visual aid is very helpful.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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chromaticblues
810 posts
Apr 30, 2011
6:23 PM
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@shredder I don't know what tools anybody sells, but I know some people use ball type things. I'll just say this about that. If you use a tool with a ball at the end of a tool like a tuning fork. It will restrick you from getting closer to the rivet by half the thickness of the ball.
Yeah embossing is like raising the compression of an engine. The angle is important, but the consistancy of the embossing is important for the reed to be stable as you stated.
MP will hook you up!
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Gnarly
28 posts
May 01, 2011
12:46 AM
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As fate would have it, I recently picked up a great tool for embossing--it says Kodak on it, and it is a stick with a stainless steel ball at the end, sized perfectly for reed slots!
What the heck is it?
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Shredder
257 posts
May 01, 2011
5:36 AM
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@gnarly, maybe it's part of a small camera tripod, swivel head?
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Gnarly
29 posts
May 02, 2011
11:08 PM
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Nope . . .
But I'll be darned if I know what it is . . .
Sure works a treat!
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