Hey all, In another thread on embossing and oil, the statement about not wanting to inhale metal was made. I think this is valid, as the only danger of brass on material safety sheets is related to inhalation of dust. It is very difficult to tune a harmonica without inhaling a bit of dust.
To make things worse, some brass alloys contain small amounts of lead.
Does anybody know if the lead content of brass used in reed plates and reeds has ever been tested?
It seems minor, but the lead content used to be high enough in brass that simply handling a key several times a day was enough to exceed exposure limits in California. If you play a harmonica with an exposed reed plate, you are actually getting quite a bit of contact, as people with tin or nickle allergies can attest to with respect to cover plates.
Certainly something to be aware of if embossing and tuning your own harmonicas to be very careful about cleaning dust before playing.
Walter
oops, sorry bout typo in topic
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2011 7:20 AM
I suspect that may have something to do with the 'better quality' of prewar harps! What's a little lead if it makes it play better. :)
A couple things to remember, California has VERY strict standards and they take a lot of precautionary measures, but that said, I don't know if there is a lead content in modern harps. I assume that the men in white lab coats are doing there jobs, but when it comes down to it I haven't seen any reports. Maybe if a member has particularly good health insurance they could get tested for lead poisoning or we could send some harps to whatever agency in California is in charge of testing these sorts of things.
But I suspect the harp companies keep a pretty good eye on things. It's cheaper to be proactive about something like this than to get sued. After tuning though, or any other work inside the harp, definitely make sure your harps are cleaned up. Inhaling extra crud isn't a good idea, whether it's metal shavings or just regular dust. Be doubly careful with older harps and never play one of NOD's harps. We've all seen the picture of where he puts them.
Lead is used in brass to make it softer so it is easier to work with. You can pickle the surface lead out by using a combination of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar and soak it. I cannot remember the formula but it can be googled.
Everything causes cancer...I think the only solution is to tune without playing the reeds before blowing them out/cleaning them. There are a number of ways to do this.
Between all the materials and parts, a harmonica has a lot of stuff to inhale. Gross! Or as my son would say, "EWWWWW! 'Gusting!" ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I don't know if lead causes cancer. I know it can make you stupid though. It has something to do with something but I don't know what. Huh. Maybe there is something to, er, what were we talking about?
You all worried about a little lead in your harp fillings?? There is lead all around you and in your food thanks to the decades use of leaded gasoline. Just where do you think all that lead coming out all of those tail pipes ended up? The lead in the harp ain't gonna do nothing to you compared to the lead already in the environment.
Many harmonicas are made in China http://www.gluckman.com/ChinaHarp.html, and the Chinese don't exactly have a stellar record when it comes to safety issues and keeping lead out of things like children's toys. in 2009 Chinese citizens rioted when over 2000 children living near a smelter were found to have high levels of lead.. they don't even protect their own people much of the time.
There is a reason lead is out of gasoline, exposure is cumulative, and does not go away. There is no known safe threshold for lead...
So it sounds as if nobody knows if harmonicas reeds or reed plates have been tested for lead. You all can react to the information, if it is available anywhere, any way you would like.
haha you talk about lead in the ALLOY being dangerous, but at the same time assume that playing aluminum combs is ok. Or even worse, a "dymondwood" comb which has epoxy, that is 100 times more dangerous! (the stink of such combs proves the fact). ---------- Free Harp Learning Center
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2011 1:56 AM
I seem to remember being told many years ago that all metals are, technically speaking, poisonous. If some of the older people here think about how much lead they have breathed in from car exhaust during their lives, they wouldn't worry about the lead content of brass. Copper is certainly poisonous, and there's more of that in brass than there is lead! ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
To be strictly accurate, the Daily Mail thinks that every substance known to man either causes or cures cancer, so it's not all bad! ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Interesting point about dymonwood. I know some "seal" it by buffing it with things like jeweler's rogue or coat it with non-toxic nail polish.
I know with the Sjoeberg combs there are multiple layers of sealant/lacquer to avoid inhaling dymonwood dust. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
1. What's the average life expectancy of harmonica players? 2. How high does this number go after discounting those that died from emphysema and liver disease from a life spent in clubs? 3. How much higher after discounting violent deaths from jealous spouses etc?
My wife came home from the store the other day with Ramen noodles, after 21 years of us not allowing them in our home. 7 grams of saturated fat and 1800 mg of sodium per ONE 3 ounce package. It's so bad that the label lists the serving size as 2 servings per package just to make the numbers look better! My 9 year old (the only harp player of the three) is making 2 packages at a time just to fill him up. Thats 1 1/3 times the sodium needed daily for an adult; in just one meal.
My son mostly plays harps with ABS combs and recessed reedplates. Until there's more evidence/statistics concerning harps, the more urgent task will be fighting my wife over the noodles. It won't be pretty (the fight, not the wife. She's still pretty even when she's mad). ---------- Ozark Rich __________ ##########
Okay, so we know lead is one of the really bad things, but do we know if it's in modern harps? That seems to be the million dollar question. China doesn't have a great record with consumer safety. Does the fact that Japanese and German companies are involved in the chain mean there is better quality control? Unless we have a chemist on board or someone who knows more about the regulatory process to get them checked it seems like we are at an impasse.
Miles makes a good point, the toxic effects of lead are clearly established.
I am not trying to be alarmist here and am well aware of how people mis-perceive risk. As a biology prof I am also aware of some aspects of toxicology and true risk. I am certainly aware that complete immersion in di-hydrogen oxide for more than a few minutes without proper respiratory aids can be fatal. :-)
The comment about the composite combs is an interesting one. I do not worry about the molds and bacteria in a harmonica if kept reasonably clean.. we breath in all kinds of mold and bacteria all the time, and have evolved with this exposure since well before we were humans.
If you read the safety material on brass and bronze, it says do not inhale the dust or particles. When we emboss or worse scrape reeds and repeatedly draw to test tuning.. we are getting that exposure unless we are very careful to clean up after every scrape or file. So this could be an issue regardless of the lead content (e.g. the earlier statement that copper can be toxic is correct).
Likewise we are exposed to the reed plate and the comb pretty strongly as it is in our mouths and we clack our teeth against it etc.
Hell, I played gigs in bars with smokers, and I know that is bad for me.. did not give it up, but if I had a choice would not do it. My point is, I try to manage risk without freaking out, but if I can minimize a well documented risk, I will.
I know that a few members here work fairly closely with some of the major companies. Has the question of lead content in brass ever been asked? Do they claim to have tested for that anywhere? Thanks, Walter
Brad and I had this discussion a few years ago and he had some reeds tested. IIRC prewar Hohner brass had more lead, late model harps have almost none or none (sorry but I can't remember which). But it was something he was concerned about for sure. The US government caused havoc in the motorcycle industry by not allowing sales of minibikes due to lead in engine parts that children would have no chance of eating, I doubt if harmonicas have been overlooked but really don't know.
"But certain thing have a much higher liklihood of causing cancer. Lead is among the top of the list to"
Walterharp says "Miles makes a good point"
The International Agency for Research on Cancer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Agency_for_Research_on_Cancer classifies lead as a class 2B substance: Group 1: carcinogenic to humans. Group 2A: probably carcinogenic to humans. Group 2B: possibly carcinogenic to humans.
The real danger in lead is probably that it accumulates in the body more than any other substance. I once read that caramel was a carcinogen, but I can't find a reference to it in any of the related Wiki pages, so I'll check it out further. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2011 12:11 PM
