Hi Hapers, just a quick question, if i want to make the 7,8&9 reeds a bit more immediate and responsive should i be increasing or decreasing the gap? P.S. i will be working on a MB Deluxe in C
It depends. Are they breathy/leaky or are they sticky. Whenever I set up a new harp I always close both blow and draw gaps down all the way until they do not respond and gradually start to open both little by little in balance until I get the response that I desire.
Joe Spiers has some great adjustment videos on youtube. Start with this one.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
You should try lowering the gap. Usually they're set too high, so they won't be as responsive and take more air. If they start to stick when you draw a little too hard, you should then raise them a little bit. Sometimes my 7 draw is gapped too low, so when I glissando over it, it either doesn't sound or won't sound as strong as the other notes in the glissando. So in this case I would need to raise the gap to make it more responsive. So without trying it myself, it's hard to know whether it needs to be raised or lowered (especially on those high reeds), but I would try lowering it first (they ussually come set high from the factory), go a little bit at a time until you get it the way you like it. And if after you've played around with lowering the reeds for awhile, if it doesn't improve or in fact gets worse, then you should try raising the gap.
Like I said, it's difficult to know for sure without me actually trying the harp. Sorry I can't give you a more direct answer. But hopefully this will help you figure it out.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 2:21 PM
I don't actually think Joe's videos are that helpful if you are not experienced at gapping...it's just someone pushing a toothpick in a hole. I still don't know how to gap correctly and I've been messing about for a few years now. What I'd like to see is some pictures which show the reed relative to the plate. I know gaps will be different for everyone but it would be nice to actually see a harp that has been set up properly. The only video I've ever seen which explains it well is Adam's vid which was one of his first ones.
@Oisin - If you start by closing the gaps completely so the reeds are choked then gradually increase the gap and try playing it after each adjustment you'll know it's right when it plays right. You said "I know gaps will be different for everyone" - Precisely. So when we are dealing with adjustments so miniscule that the eye may not even perceive the difference, where half a hairs width can have a huge impact, what good is going to come from using your eyes to judge whether the gap is right or not. You don't play harmonica with your eyes. When it responds the way you want it to when you play it is right.
The biggest problem I encounter when I go through gapping with my students is heavy handedness where a student's idea of a small adjustment is to bend the reed up like a banana and end up with a gap that you could drive a bus through. It is very, very, very delicate work requiring the tiniest of adjustment each time and lots of patience.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Sometimes you just can't properly gap reeds visually. Different reeds can have different spring energy, even if it's the same note/hole in the same brand of harmonica. There are manufacturing inconsistencies, different reed profiles between makers, and different reed profiles/materials over the course of time within the same makers.
Your breath applies the same aerodynamic force to like-sized reeds regardless of their invisible spring power. If the spring is weaker, it needs a wider gap to return and oscillate against harder breath than a stronger spring will. If the spring is stronger, it resists the breath force more and needs a tighter gap to sing under light breath force.
To adjust your reeds, play the reed very lightly and get a feel for how much air it takes to tickle the reed and make it sing. The amount air that is wasted before it sings feels to me a lot like the amount of air that's wasted while it's being played harder. Try to adjust the gap to minimize this initial air leak, but not so tight that the reed stalls out when played hard. To do it right you should be using the "hot" air initiated by the diaphragm, just as we should when we play.
Sorry you found the videos unsatisfactory, maybe this explanation will help them make more sense.
@Oisin - I do yes. I have gone through it with students using Skype. For harp adjustment Skype is not as good as face to face though. I'm no Joe S or Joe F when it comes to harp mechanics, but feel free to email me if you want to discuss it further. You can contact me at: blowtheblues(at)hotmail(dot)com.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Hey Joe, I can see that the vids make more sense when you explain it like that and as I said above I'm not experienced at gapping so no offence meant about your videos. I guess what you're saying is stop looking and start feeling. I will follow what you've said above and thanks for taking the time to explain it.
Lee thanks for the offer. I'll try your advice and see how I get on.
Like Joe said, you have to know how you want it to feel. There are some rules of thumb and starting points, but eventually you end up tweaking to taste.
Generally, you want tighter gaps as you go up the harp. Generally, you want tighter gaps on the blow plate to optimize bending. I am not just saying this to be difficult, but there are so many factors to consider when going for the optimal reed profile, that gapping is hard to nail to concrete rules.
Here are two relative constants...your three blow will be gapped much lower than 3 draw. The 9 and 10 reeds will be gapped as low as possible without choking if you want easy blow bends.
One thought, that is just crossing my mind, is to gap the blow reeds first...so they won't choke but are low, and then adjust the draw reeds to taste. It won't be perfect, but Joe's approach in the vids is spot on! It is more of a feel than visual thing. You have to know what you want it to feel/sound like.
If you mod the harp in other ways, that can impact how you will want it gapped. To put it in context, though, I play with medium to light force and can usually get great bends from a harp with doing other than gapping...a lot of bang for the buck.
On Hohners, obs can be had (not optimal) with just gapping too. Overdraws can be hit or miss due to squealing. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
7 and 8 draw will be wider than 9 and 10. The blow reeds will be close to the same on all four holes. Most the time. At least it is a good place to start. 7 draw vs choke vs overdraw can be tricky based on the key and other factors. If you are just blow bending 8, I'd say it is still solid advice.
Of all the "trade secrets", I think gapping should be the least secret...tied with tuning. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Lots of good advice here--the best all around reference for this stuff for me has been the Richard Sleigh book "How to Turbocharge Your Harmonica." He does a great job of diagramming everything in a very clear way for me, and lays out how to check things out. It's also the best (I believe) reference on tuning I have ever found.
I just realized I need to go read it again--I'm a little rusty on thinking with this stuff. . . ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
It got me riled a little bit when I read the toothpick in the hole thing, but I was OK after reading the followup and I know you didn't mean anything by it.
From reading your followup post, I think you figured this out, gapping IS pushing something into a hole. Guys, you all have it REALLY EASY! When I posted my first video, there was only one other harmonica mechanic video on Youtube and it was in Italian. That's the absolute truth. The only reason I started posting videos in the first place was because there were none. In those days, you had to figure it all out on your own, then when you finally got to meet somebody to show you some stuff, like when I met Jason Ricci and we were up till 5 a.m. in a Williamstown, WV hotel room with him showing me stuff, you had to soak it up like crazy cause God only knew when you'd get another chance like that again and then you went back to trying to reinvent the wheel yourself, albeit with a little more education. When Joe started, the Internet didn't even exist.
Now, you just gotta hit play... hit "search" on google and it's all there.
Solid gold stuff, Joe! You are a treasure!
Oisin, send me your number, if you'd like and I'll talk to you a little bit about gapping. e-mail is dave at elkriverharmonicas.com
You know I'm not the most diplomatic person in the world but even I can see now how someone who customises harps for a living might be a tad offended by how I worded my post as I read it again in the cold light of day, so sorry Dave and Joe, I meant no offence and I am grateful for all of the knowledge you guys have given us freely.
I don't come across very well in text.
Dave I will take you up on that offer. ---------- Oisin ---------- Oisin
I've viewed your vids more times than I care to admit. Mostly because it would point out how much of a nerd I am. Thanks for the resource!
For 5 or so years I used the brass tool in the Hering kit to gap and shape reeds. It has a bent end with a fine tip It broke last week. I've been using my Richard Sleigh paper clip/vice tool or a plinker, but it is like trying to throw left handed (as a rightie). I can do it, but it isn't as comfortable yet. Toothpicks work fine as do some of those plastic toothpick type things. I've used my fingers to lower gaps as well...drawing a blank on other things I've tried... ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Yeah Dave you right in the sense people have it so much easier than ever now. Toothpicks, paperclips, embossing tools! Its the thoery behind it. When someone is trying to pick up this stuff, don't do it step for step like any of these vids (nothing against the vids), but pay attention to what so and so is trying to accomplish! Then think about it. You maybe more comfortable useing something else. So try it. My day job is a mechanic at a golf course and I have my own machine shop with thousands of $$$ worth of tools. Its different with me. I can see someone do something and think of a different way of doing it at the same time. I never do anything different for the sake of different its always to save time, money or make it better! I have bought one tool from a harp customizer. It was fairly cheap and not of high quality. I was lazy and just didn't think the process though so I paid someone to do my thinking for me. This is how I look it. If you need someone to do your thinking for you. Don't complain!
Hi folks,i just wanted to say a big thank you for all the above advice, i also checked out some vids on Jim's True Chromatic site, my problem is always that holes 7,8&9 won't sound or sound a bit then choke, especially if i try to land on them during a run, (this applies to both blow and draw) i have a west weston custom MB in D and that plays fine so i no it can be done so i think i will use an old stock MB i have in C and try to feel my way until i find the sweet spot then i will have a go on the MB Deluxe
