jonlaing
231 posts
Apr 25, 2011
12:19 AM
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So, I've gotten to a point where I'm interested in picking up sheet music to learn from. I understand that I can just woodshed with a recording, but that seems like more of a blues thing, where a lot of the nuances can't be expressed in written music. For other types of music there's a lot of sheet music out there, and I'm interested in learning from it.
So my question is, being that most of us play more than one diatonic harmonica, all in different keys, how does one go about translating what one reads in sheet music, to a harmonica that may be in any given key.
Is the answer that I just have to be that intimate with all twelve key harmonicas, or is there some sort of theory that will facilitate this?
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Andrew
1323 posts
Apr 25, 2011
12:55 AM
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I've attempted it. It's truly horrible.
When I was beginning, I wrote out music, not tabs. I quickly found that it was only possible if I played on a C harp and wrote out the music in G. If I was playing a D harp, I'd just play the two draw when the music said G and pretend that it was a G, even though it was an A. It's not as good as learning to play by ear.
For example, it's not going to be worth your while to spend time learning what hole to play if you're playing in the key of Db and you need to play a G natural, without even wondering what harp you'd be playing.
If you want music theory, you need to buy a keyboard, IMO. Perhaps you should speak to a guitarist who knows theory and see if they learnt it with or without a keyboard?
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 12:58 AM
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boris_plotnikov
517 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:40 AM
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Diatonic harmonicas in keys other than C are transposing instruments. You have to prepare sheet music. With Bb harmonica you can read sheet music for clarinet, tenor sax (usually octave higher), soprano sax, trumpet. With Eb or LEb you can read music for alto sax.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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jonlaing
232 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:30 AM
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I used to play piano and sax, so reading the music wasn't the problem, it was just the problem of making it make sense in context of diatonic harmonicas.
@boris that makes a lot of sense, not sure why I didn't think of that. That helps a lot, thanks.
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jonlaing
233 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:39 AM
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So, just to confirm. If I were reading sheet music for tenor sax, and it said to play a C, that would be the 1,4,7 or 10 blow on a Bb?
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Diggsblues
756 posts
Apr 25, 2011
7:41 AM
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This could be a real problem since you could wind up
transposing in 12 keys. If everything was written as if
it was played on a C harmonica you could just change harmonicas to transpose. Musically it might involve a
clef sign change. Robert Bonfiglio has good ideas on
this problem.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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mr_so&so
424 posts
Apr 25, 2011
8:19 AM
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Jonlaing, I have some experience with this problem when dealing with Irish traditional music, but in that case, I want to play along in the key the music is written in. So the problem then is to choose the best position (harp key) to do that.
In a recent post here, I mention a tool I found to convert "abc format" (a text-based standard for representing musical scores). It can transpose keys, as well as select a harp position for a specific song key, using the "tonality" selection.
The main site for abc format music is abcnotation.com. Apparently mudcat.org has a Digital Tradition database that also has many songs in abc format, but I can't verify that.
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gene
737 posts
Apr 25, 2011
8:24 AM
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I just write the tabs under the notes, referencing the note layout.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 8:26 AM
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hvyj
1363 posts
Apr 25, 2011
8:58 AM
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When i work from sheet music, I convert the notes to degrees of the scale and write the degree of the scale in the form of a number over each note on the staff. I know where the degrees of the scale are located on the diatonic harp in each of the 5 positions I use regularly. The layout is the same in every key.
Once I convert to degrees of the scale (flat 3, 5, etc,) I can make an informed decision about what position to use in order to play the piece. This is certainly not what they teach at Julliard or Berklee, but it works for me.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 12:55 PM
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HarpNinja
1364 posts
Apr 25, 2011
9:53 AM
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I do it the exact same way as hvyj. I also find if you are working with a guitar or bass player who knows anything about music, they can talk to you in degrees quickly.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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lumpy wafflesquirt
345 posts
Apr 25, 2011
12:06 PM
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Depending where you get the sheet music from, if it is somewhere like wikifonia or from some using something like sibelius, you could print it out in the key of C and then just play it using the key of harp that the band is in.
Or learn chromatic then you can read in any key as the notes are al there "under the fingers"
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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jonlaing
234 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:09 PM
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Those are all really great suggestions. I guess the only way to solve the problem for myself is to just pick up some damn sheet music and go for it.
Thanks guys!
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oldwailer
1595 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:21 PM
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"I can read music, but not enough to hurt my playin' any. . ." I think it was Pete Seeger who said that. . .
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====================================
Always be yourself--unless you suck. . .
-Joss Whedon
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nacoran
4086 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:17 PM
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I've actually been considering this. There is something called a movable clef. (It's my understanding they all used to be movable.) It looks like an Alto Clef.
The idea of a movable clef is that you place 'do re mi etc.' on the same line each time. It was used a lot in old choral music (also with something called shape notes). The advantage is it's based on your recognition of the sounds of the scale when singing. The choir director starts the music by humming the root of the scale, but he can pick any note based on the vocal range of the choir, or for us harp players, the key of the harp. What it would look like is basic sheet music, except the clef signature would be the alto clef. The key signature would still tell you what harp to grab (or at least your position options) but the lines and notes. It's been a while since I've used it, but if I remember correctly, the line in the middle is 'do'. All you'd have to do to 'transpose' the music would be to write in a different key signature.
I've been letting the idea percolate in my head a bit. I haven't written anything out, but you'd want to write it with 'do' being first position do (otherwise keeping track of positions would be crazy) but blues harp players would learn to read it in 2nd position primarily. If anyone is interested I could develop it a little. It's much simpler to explain with pictures rather than words. And as sheet music it gives you a way to visually look at the notes.
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Nate
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eharp
1289 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:26 PM
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not sure if this helps but on another forum there was a thread about the nashville system. the number of # told you the key then you just had to see where the notes were in relation to the lines and spaces which would tell you what hole.
or something like that.
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boris_plotnikov
518 posts
Apr 25, 2011
6:42 PM
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I insist that tabs sucks. Any special harmonica sheet music sucks. Why?
If you want harmonica to be respected as a "real instrument" not a toy, you have to be able to communicate with other musicians and to speak the same music language. I don't mean you can't be a great player without reading sheet music, knowing theory etc. You can be just a great player with a perfect pitch. But if you want harmonica to be respected as a real instrument and you respected as a real musician you must have ability to understand regular notations and at least some basic theory (e.g. understaning chords and progressions are essential!)
I think current musical notation is far from perfect, there's some more useful and comfortable for beginner like chromatic staff, moveable clef, twinnote staff etc. but unfortunately they are still not accepted be whole stupid world.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 8:17 PM
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nacoran
4089 posts
Apr 25, 2011
9:27 PM
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I think as long as you learn movable clef relative to the grand staff you can communicate with 'real' musicians just fine. Part of the problem though, is that lots of the 'real' musicians learn their instruments version of tab instead of real sheet music. If you aren't careful you end up in a band with one guitar player playing from tab, one from those fret drawings, playing harp tab with a singer who is doing it all by ear. :)
I think functionally movable do has all the versatility of sheet music with the added benefit of not needed to transcribe everything every time you pick up a different harp. As for communicating with other musicians, if they know sheet music they should be at least theoretically familiar with the movable do and shouldn't have any more problem reading from it than they would if they were playing from any other 'different' clef. (Most of the musicians I've met, except piano players, really only read one clef well.)
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Nate
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jonlaing
236 posts
Apr 25, 2011
10:06 PM
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I agree, tabs blow as do all of the songs that have been tabbed out (Not necessarily the songs themselves, but when you play them from the tabs). I'm intrigued by the movable clefs. I'll have to look into it.
@boris when you pick up sheet music and it's written to be in an inconvenient position on the harp, do you transpose it to a harmonica that would be easier, or do you just deal with it as is?
Thanks guys, this is really helpful.
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boris_plotnikov
519 posts
Apr 25, 2011
10:34 PM
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jonlaing
unfortunetly I'm not a sight reader. To be comfortable I transpose music to comfortable position (I usually use Band In A box to write notes, and it's very easy to transpose). But I actually remember concert key note layout for most harps (at least G, Bb, F, D, A), so I can read music with different keyed harp than C, but it's harder for me.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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