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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Alternate Tunings?
Alternate Tunings?
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HarpNinja
1346 posts
Apr 18, 2011
6:15 AM
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This is something I've never really gotten into, although, it has become more and more interesting as of late. I started with tuning down the 7 draw a half step (Todd Parrott tuning) on a D harmonica.
It is extremely flexible with just this slight alteration - until you play the song "Hook" this past weekend and start the solo without remember to switch back to a regular D, which you don't have hand, and grab a standard E and play it in 12th.
I've been investigating the Powerbender, but I haven't tried it yet (it will be a week or two until I have time to retune/trade reeds on a harp). I thought about going ahead and ordering one from Brendan as I know 1.) it will work perfectly 2.) it comes with a book.
Then I got to thinking about what I play and what I'd want from a harp. Really, Richter has worked well for me as I can overblow and overdraw. However, I see the benefit of alternate tunings and the "short comings" of Richter. Namely, I am all over the harp all the time. I use all three octaves equally. I do play fast at times and am a bit intimidated at the learning curve of relearning patterns.
So, and I admit to paying virtually no attention to these conversations in the past, but what is the best alternate tuning for doing one of the following:
1. Letting me transfer some of my bottom and middle octave licks to the upper octave? Namely, some of the inflection on bends. I've been doing this a la John Popper and adding overdraws, but maybe there is a better way???
2. Play mostly rock music and some blues? I play a lot of major and minor pentatonic. I bet I use 3rd and 12th for at least half of each gig. I woodshedded 11th, but haven't used it much as 12th is so easy for me to play now.
I might be to the point where it is just as easy to stick with Richter, but thought I'd check in with some of our alt tuning pros. I know diminished was brought up some time back, but I didn't like the way it sounded. The Powerbender seems like it would be of interest. I think I'd miss octaves and chords UNLESS the alt tuning freed up some power chords (3rd and 5th double stops).
The more I think about it, anything that lets me keep some of my 3rd/12th position thinking would be an easy switch.
To summarize, I feel really solid in my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 11th, and 12th position playing. I try to mix it up during the course of a night, but generally like the tone of harps between Low F and standard D. Overblows and overdraws don't scare me and are something I woodshed all the time currently. I do use a number of minor and major note patterns to play fast passages.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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Stevelegh
193 posts
Apr 19, 2011
1:20 AM
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Hey Mike.
I've been watching this thread and was going to reply yesterday.
Following all the Power Bender threads and also tweaking a harp to the Todd Parrott tuning, I'm going to order a Power Bender harp and book set.
My reasons are somewhat different to yours as I don't really use holes 7-10, unless it some pre learned lick from another player (Adam did a great one going from 10 to 1 in one of his vids).
I just want to play more chromatically in 3 octaves in 2nd and 12th without much fear of hitting sour notes and on any harp. I'm not really competent enough to set up every harp I have for overblows and to be honest, I don't have the time or inclination and I certainly don't want to spend thousands on top of the line customs.
My feeling on alt. tunings is that it isn't much different to guitar. In fact, you could argue that it would make your playing stand out from the crowd. Albert Collins didn't have many imitators. For now, Power Bender seems to offer an opportunity to sound different.
I should learn to tune / fit valves etc. I've gone from LO's to trying all kinds of different harps for overblows and whilst it's fun, it's an expensive pastime.
Given your customising skills, why don't you just take a bit of time to tweak a harp up and buy the book from Brendan?
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jim
800 posts
Apr 19, 2011
2:26 AM
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I think when you go for an alt. tuning, you should not search for familiar places/positions. Because if you do - any differences from what you're used to will be percieved as disadvantages. And it's not right...
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Zhin
627 posts
Apr 19, 2011
3:39 AM
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Hey Mike!
The booklet and the harpmaster in A that comes from Brenden is worth the money spent.
The booklet pretty much tells you the difference between the powerbender tuning and the standard and also gives away how to tune your harps to the PB tuning.
Oh and for the record it wasn't given to me. I bought it myself out of curiosity and was pleasantly surprised!
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http://www.youtube.com/harmonicazhin
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2011 3:41 AM
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Micha
183 posts
Apr 19, 2011
4:34 AM
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I second Jim. When trying a new tuning, don't start by comparing it to what you already know. Explore it first.
Just try the PB Mike. Play some minor and major pentatonics in a few positions (Brendan's Book will give you the tabs) and you will immediately see the advantages.
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chromaticblues
783 posts
Apr 19, 2011
7:11 AM
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Something you might want to consider is half valving a harp. I don't like valves on the first three holes myself, but above that it works very well. It works in the low octave! I just don't like is what I mean. I did a Lee Oskar recently and noticed it changed the overall tone to more like a SP 20. Holes 4 5 6 wasn't even noticeable (unless you try a overblow). Holes 7 thru 10 is where I thought that set up really shined! The tone of the draw notes was much fuller and the bend of the 7 draw is very easy.
Nice thing about it is the note layout is the same so there isn't alot of relearning.
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barbequebob
1616 posts
Apr 19, 2011
8:22 AM
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Whenever you get into using alternate tunings, the first thing you have to do is learn where everything is, regardless of the positions because what you once had "muscle morey" of, you will need to make new ones and while you get certain things that you previously were unable to do otherwise or with some difficulty, there are going to be trade offs of some sort because stuff that may have once been easy can be made a tad harder.
The thing with alternate tunings isn't jsut bends and overblows, but certain types of phrasings can become easier to play because of the different breathing patterns involved as some phrases even on a standard richter tuning can be a royal pain in the butt regardless of ability to bend or OB, and here's where those tunings come into play.
Magic Dick used tons of altered tunings in the later years of J. Geils and some of those tunings may be OK to tune to just intonation but some of them won't work well that way at all.
The single most commonly used altered tuning is Country tuning, which has the 5 draw tuned 1/2 step sharp, giving you a major 7th on the draw chord and you can do tons of ballads, jazz, (and of course, country music) and basically convert 2nd position to work more like 1st position.
I used a harp that I retuned for a tune with the now defunct Cambridge Harmonica Orchestra where for being used mainly as a rhythm harp for Work Song, I had a key of C where the draw chord is tuned minor, BUT with a major 7th, almost like it was tuned in a melodic minor. I could easily play the theme from the Godfather on it but using it for soloing, I had to make sure I knew where every note was available and was not available.
If you valve a diatonic (partially), it will mellow out the sounds of chords on an ET tuned harp because they also act as a damper cutting down on the harsh odd numbered harmonic overtones that really tend to come out in a big way on an ET tuned diatonic much like it does on a chromatic.
Ceck out Pat Missin's site where he has a complete listing of alternate tunings and some of them are amazing.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harpdude61
829 posts
Apr 19, 2011
9:00 AM
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HarpNinja......If you want to play the same 2nd position blues licks in 3 different octaves with inflections on bends AND you play overbends...I can't imagine a better tuning than Richter.
You can play the same style bends on 1 draw, 4 draw, 7 overdraw and 10 overdraw. You can really wail if you bend that 7 overdraw up and down between the flat 5th and the major fifth......The 6 overblow bent up sounds just like going from flat 3rd to major third on 3 draw.
It is hard to copy the high end blow bend 1st position stuff in the other two octaves.....and several licks transfer well in 3rd position.
Overbending has opened a new dimension for me. Currently woodshedding to get my low end licks usable in two and sometimes three octaves.
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isaacullah
1465 posts
Apr 19, 2011
10:55 AM
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Hmmm... just sort of thinking about this, it might make sense for you to try a harp where holes 7-10 have been retuned to a Powerbender layout, but leave holes 5 and 6 the same (ie. don't change them from richter). That way all your 2nd 3rd and 12th licks will be the same in the low and middle octaves up until the 7 hole, but the upper octave will now be the same layout as the lower octave. This means that you can get all the really juicy draw bends up there, but you can still get your familiar octave splits and you can still hit that 6 OB for your 2nd position blue third if you want, OR you can get it on the new 7 draw bend. You can still do your overblows on 4 and 5 too, but you no longer need to do ANY overdraws (which to me, are the weakest sounding and hardest to get overbends).
Yeah, you miss out on some of the new flavor that the powerbender provides (especially being able to bend up into the root note of the second octave in second position), but for you, this may be the best compromise. Heck, if you half valve it, you might get even more fun out of it!
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== I S A A C ==
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Stevelegh
198 posts
Apr 19, 2011
11:07 AM
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I like the sound of that Isaac.
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HarpNinja
1350 posts
Apr 19, 2011
11:15 AM
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Without doing the math, I've thought about something like that. I play so much up there, that I am relatively fluent, but I haven't necessarily relearned the same patterns I use on the other two octaves.
I am probably fine with Richter the more I think about it, but surely see the value of talking some of this through. I do enjoy the harp I tuned in style to what Todd uses. But, like I've mentioned, it then make some of the high end runs too minor sounding unless I relearn patterns. Pros and cons.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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Stevelegh
200 posts
Apr 19, 2011
1:02 PM
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Isaac:
OK, I'm always happy to be called a doofus, but I was just checking out the PowerBender tuning here:
http://www.brendan-power.com/images/POWERBENDER%20first%20few%20Pages.pdf
The note layout is totally different to the lower richter octave.
Am I wrong? I'm not boned up at all on tuning, I'm not too smart on this stuff and I am on the 'wrong' end of a bottle of wine (UK time. Ha!), but it doesn't add up.
Cheers (literally!)
Steve
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