ReedSqueal
119 posts
Apr 12, 2011
1:07 PM
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For someone that can not "feel" it yet, let's say for example you lose count in the progression, who are you listening to for the I, IV or V chord; the bass or guitar? (or mix and match?)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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groyster1
992 posts
Apr 12, 2011
1:43 PM
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listen to the drummer if there is one
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ReedSqueal
120 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:08 PM
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Sorry, let me clarify -
I am not talking about WHEN the change happens but the SOUND of the chord that is being played -- who are you listening to?
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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arzajac
496 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:12 PM
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Groyster1 is probably pointing out that the drummer will help you in that respect. Kind of like pointing the way instead of telling you that you are there. But it depends on the song.
Sometimes, the vocal will also give you a clue.
For an instrumental, perhaps you should pay more attention to the buildup of tension rather than the sounds of the chords. A bit of the same thing - you will be able to see the change coming rather than realize that it's there (and not be ready).
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ReedSqueal
121 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:22 PM
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Listening to the drummer for chord changes - this is an interesting concept for me anyways.
So lets use this set up for example. 12 bars.
I I I I
IV IV I I
V IV I I ... to the turn around.
All good if you know that's what the song will be doing.
But what if a song starts on the IV and you don't know that. I suppose you could be listening to the drummer but wouldn't you have to wait a bar or 2 to figure it out as opposed to hearing a chord and know it in a couple of beats? (I may be way off base with this)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2011 2:24 PM
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eharp
1280 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:23 PM
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i almost always go to the bass.
(that leaves guitar and tambourine.)
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Jim Rumbaugh
480 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:45 PM
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Listen to the bass or guitar. and maybe the drummer.
I can hear the changes, but I have played bass for 40 years. SOMETIMES you will get a musical cue right before the change. That cue may be a change in ht ebass line, a change in the drumm pattern, or a chord change. Maybe that's why it's called the changes?
But you can have boring musicians that don't leave you a clue until it's too late, so every song can be different, depending on who's and how they are playing.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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nacoran
4001 posts
Apr 12, 2011
2:59 PM
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Depending on the setting you have a couple of options. If you are just sitting around jamming to your stereo, play a few notes and see if they sound right and try to figure out where you are in the progression. If you are on stage you can back away from the mic and do the same thing. Mostly it's going to be by ear though. The guitar player will probably be playing more notes, or even full chords, which may give you a better idea for what chord you are on, but the bass player is going to be playing a more basic part which may be easier if you are trying to match a specific note. It's not a bad idea to know where the changes come in the lyrics either. If you match lines in the song with where you are in the progression it's quick way to get back on track.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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tookatooka
2285 posts
Apr 12, 2011
3:00 PM
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You may want to try something that I fathomed out. It worked for me and got me going.
Get used to playing call and response.
Four bars for the call
Four bars for the call (repeated)
Then four bars for the response
That way you begin to get the twelve bars ingrained and you can start improvising later when it feels more natural.
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Miles Dewar
845 posts
Apr 12, 2011
4:02 PM
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- If a decrease in tension comes after only 2 bars that were the same, you are on the "I" chord (Bar 7-8).
- If an increase in tension comes after 3+ bars that were the same, you are on the "IV" chord (Bars 5-6).
- - If an increase in tension comes after only 2 bars that were the same, you are on the "V" chord (Bar 9)
- The Turnaround is too easy not to feel.
- After the turnaround is the "I" chord.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2011 4:05 PM
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ReedSqueal
122 posts
Apr 12, 2011
5:46 PM
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Some great suggestions. I am actually starting to feel so over time I suppose it will come more naturally. Like the turnaround is easy-peasy ;-)
@Tooka - yeah, the call-response thing is something that is coming with the territory so thanks for the reminder.
@Nacoran - I started doing that recently, but I thought I was cheating haha.
@Miles - another angle, I like it.
So this all just confirms with me not to expect a Mr. Miyagi 'Wax on, wax off' moment but rather time and more time. And just playing.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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groyster1
993 posts
Apr 12, 2011
5:46 PM
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@tooka
one of the most helpful posts in a long time-thanks from across the pond you play special20s so you are right on
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tookatooka
2286 posts
Apr 13, 2011
1:55 AM
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Gee! Thanks, and I thought people were gonna laugh.
Maybe I should have said
Four bars for the call
Four bars for the call (repeated)
Then four bars for the response and turnaround.
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Barry C.
230 posts
Apr 13, 2011
8:14 AM
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bass is always my go-too.
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~Banned in Boston!
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
640 posts
Apr 13, 2011
9:19 AM
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From the I chord,there are a finite number of places you can go, chordwise. You usually go to the IV, V or VI chords.
In 2nd position, if you can't anticipate what it is, you can hit 2 draw on the change until you figure out what is going on.
When you are leaving the I chord and going into the next, you can when you feel like it, bend the two draw a full step to get the 7th of the I chord, which is a good lead-in note, then play 2 draw unbent when the change happens and the band goes into the next chord.
Here's the magic of the two draw...
The two draw is (key of G on C harp in parenthesis):
A) the root of the I chord (G chord, G note)
B) The fifth of the IV chord (C chord, G note)
C) the third of the VI chord (E minor chord, G note)
C) You can quickly bend down a half step to get the third of the V chord. (D chord, F# note). Even if you continue to play a G note in the V chord, you've created a Dadd4 chord (band is playing DF#A, you add the G). Might clash, might not. ERIFAHS may investigate this later.
While on the Dadd4 chord. You'll get far if you think of your playing resolution notes as creating chords. That's what you are doing, you play one note, the band plays others, whole effect is whatever chord all the notes put together make, or dischord if they don't. That's how they get chords in orchestras and whatnot. Different instruments playing different notes, all making a big chord.
Now you know why harmonica players play the two draw so much. Eventually, you'll want to find something else to do, but it's perfect while you are learning.
Also, learn to recognize chord finger patterns on guitar. That's how I play along on a song I don't know.
You can also quickly tell what key a song is in by hitting the two draw on various harmonicas until you get the right one, for the music theory reasons mentioned above.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2011 9:25 AM
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HarpNinja
1336 posts
Apr 13, 2011
11:22 AM
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If you are wanting to hear the chord, listen to the chord player...so the guitar player. The bass player doesn't play chords typically. The drummer for sure doesn't.
From your previous posts on this thread it seems like you're talking if you want to figure out where the band is to start counting again by what chord they are playing over.
Lots of good advice on how to count the progression here, but that is different than trying to listen to what chord the band is in.
Good news is you can just stick to the blues scale in the key of the tune in blues and be "in tune" even if you get lost.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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acerimusdux
14 posts
Apr 14, 2011
6:47 AM
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Keeping it simple, f you break the 12 bars of a typical 12 bar blues into three parts, the third chord of each part is the always the I chord:
I I I I
IV IV I I
V IV I V
The last part with the turnaround is easy to hear because the chord changes each bar. The first part is easy to hear because the chord stays the same for four bars.
Really, if you hear just four bars, that will normally be enough to tell where you are. The biggest challenge there might be if you hear one chord for 2 bars than a different one for 2 bars. There's two places that can occur.
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groyster1
999 posts
Apr 14, 2011
10:56 AM
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@acerimusdux
the 3rd chord of each part is always the I chord-appreciate the information-this forums info is so valuable
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2011 9:34 AM
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ReedSqueal
126 posts
Apr 15, 2011
8:31 AM
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I really appreciate the input.
@HarpNinja - Your explanation makes the most sense. Which in retrospect, is most applicable to my question. HEARING the chords vs. counting progressions.
Dave / Elk River Harmonica wins the prize for making my head spin the most. ;-)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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hvyj
1360 posts
Apr 16, 2011
7:28 AM
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Yes. The problem with counting is that not all tunes are I-IV-V. You've got to hear it. What can be really helpful is just to LISTEN to different kinds of music all the time and as you listen try to figure out a harp part in your head that would fit. Whether it will actually fit is not the point--but listening that way will help you start to HEAR the chord changes as they happen.
Some players are better at "feeling" the changes as they are about to hit, but even some very accomplished players don't have a refined sense of groove. So you've got to be able to hear them. And, btw, it's easier to hear well if you are not playing constantly. Don't be afraid to let the music happen around you--it' s much easier to hear what's actually going on if you leave enough space to let the music breath.
Personally if I'm playing unfamiliar material and there's a keyboard player, i like to stand where I can watch the keyboard player's hands if possible.
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Greg Heumann
1107 posts
Apr 16, 2011
9:06 AM
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It is the bass player's JOB to hit the root of the chord on the 1st beat of the bar whenever a chord changes. The drummer doesn't know the chord progression. The guitar player may play well outside the box. From where I sit, the best person to listen to (and who musicians are taught to listen to) is the bass player.
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/Greg
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arzajac
499 posts
Apr 16, 2011
7:06 PM
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Jamey Aebersold offers a free jazz handbook geared towards the beginner. Just google for it - it is jammed packed with information.
Here is a quote that may be relevant to this issue. It's a jazz booklet, but it also pertains to Blues. I was reading the booklet and it made me think of this post.
Page five:
Soloing: by Jamey Aebersold
1. Keep your place - don’t get lost. If you do get lost LISTEN to the rhythm section. The drummer
will often give a little crash at the beginning of new sections. If you hit a note that is not what you
intended, move it up or down a half-step and you’ll probably be back in the scale (or chord).
Remember, jazz music usually moves in two, four and eight bar phrases. You’re never far from a
new phrase beginning.
2. Play right notes. This really means play the notes you hear in your head...the notes you
would sing with your mouth. Having the scales and chords in front of you on a piece of paper is
merely a guide. They don’t provide the actual music that’s going to be played. THAT comes from
YOUR imagination. If you’ve got the scales, chords, and chord/scale progression MEMORIZED
it provides courage to your imagination and allows you to operate from a more creative natural
basis. It allows you to take some chances. It helps remove FEAR.
3. Using REPETITION and SEQUENCE is natural in music. It’s found in all types and styles of
music. The novice improvisor often feels that if they repeat an idea, everyone knows they are
going to repeat it, so why do it; plus it’s not original enough for your EGO so you don’t play it.
WRONG! The listener needs to hear some repetition and sequence or else they can’t remember
anything you play. Repetition and Sequence are the glue that holds solos together. The usual
number of times something is repeated depends on you but the average is 2 or 3 and then your
mind will tell you when to repeat and/or when to use sequence. It’s a part of the way we hear
music played by others.
4. CHORD TONES (the 1, 3, 5, & 7 of a scale) are great notes to begin and end a phrase with.
Just sing a phrase and see if you don’t follow this simple rule. Our ears HEAR chord tones first
so it’s natural to begin and end there. Plus, it gives us and the listener what we’re listening for -
harmonic stability.
5. SOUND: Be sure that you are getting a good, full sound on your instrument (or voice). Don’t
let the scales and chords or the progression or tempo intimidate you. Sound is foremost and is
the FIRST thing a person latches onto when you sing or play. It leaves a lasting impression. So,
be yourself and let your voice or instrument ring out. It’s the main ingredient of your musical
personality.
6. LISTENING: There’s no way anyone is going to play jazz or improvise well without listening
to those musicians who have come before. Through listening alone you can find ALL the an-
swers. Each musician is a result of what they have listened to. It’s easy to determine who people
have listened to by listening to them play. We all tend to use imitation and it’s good to do this.
Some feel that if they listen to others they’ll just sound like them. This is not true but your ego will
try to convince you it’s true. The ego hates competition or what it preceives to be competition.
Don’t let it fool you. If no one listened to anyone else, why play music? Music is for everyone and
truly is a Universal Language.
7. Everyone has the ability to improvise - from the youngest child to the senior citizen. You
have to have desire and set aside time to work at it until moving your fingers becomes automatic
and the distance between your mind and fingers grows smaller and smaller to where you think an
idea and your fingers are already playing it. It’s not magic. If it is, then magic equals hard work
and perseverance. When asked, “What is the greatest obstacle to enlightenment?” the Buddha
replied, “Laziness.” I agree!
Copyright © 2000 Jamey Aebersold Jazz, Inc. http://www.jazzbooks.com
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ReedSqueal
127 posts
Apr 17, 2011
6:34 PM
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@Greg - I think your post hits the nail on the head...
Probably what I was really asking but didn't know it.
*root of the chord* of course.
...glad I'm not a bass player ;-)
@Arzajack - thanks for that! More stuff to chew on.
This has been a terrific distillation process for me.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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KingBiscuit
38 posts
Apr 17, 2011
7:42 PM
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I agree with Greg...Bass player is the guy to listen to. A week or so ago, I played a local jam. A couple tunes in, they swap out the bass player. The guy was a good bass player except for the one thing Greg pointed out. Several times, he was running all over the neck and was not always hitting the root on the first beat. He kept good time, but if you lost count, it was over.
Just my opinion.
Dan
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