when i listen to any of the players who use the OB style it sounds like it`s thiner than regular chicago blues harp.like most of James Cotton and in particular walter horton`s Easy.big fat sound ! is the OB set up taking away some overtones ?.
No! OB setup don't kill overtones, it add overtones. But controllable overbends itself sounds slightly weaker than regular notes, so overblow players often tends to play regular notes slightly thinner. But it's not a rule. E.g. check Chris Michalek's playing. He was decent overblow player and he had fattest tone ever. Check this video
If you'll listen to Howard Levy playing, the faster he play the thinner tone, while playing slow he has really big resonant tone. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
You know, I don't OB but I am not critical of those who do. However, I agree that some (not all) OB players seem to have a thinner tone.
Having fooled around tying to OB, I suspect some OB players may tend to create air pressure from the mouth rather than the diaphragm as they implement the OB technique which would, of course, result in thinner tone. But other OB players seem to get very decent tone.
Good question and response by Boris-Faster playing(espcially runs from one end to the other on the harp), at least my own personal observations, require a different embouchere, and this will affect tone somewhat. I'm(still)not an overblow player, so I can't speak for the required embouchere there. ---------- Todd
We also have the exception of players like Dennis Gruenling who are tongue blocking players who utilize overblows.
To go back to colman's original post, it seems like he/she is asking if setting up one's harmonica to more easily facilitate overblows takes away from the richness of the sound of the harmonica.
I know, in many cases, I've managed to (not on purpose) make some of my harps alot brighter/more trebley (I know it's not a word) because of work I had done to them.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2011 6:04 AM
No reason at all for an overbend to be a thinner tone if done correctly.
hvyj is correct. You must play from deep in the diaphragm to get great tone overbending.
ToddL...no need to change embrochure for overblows. Do it from the throat.
I stand by my belief that players like Jason could not move between blows, blowbends, overblows, draws draw bends and overbends so quickly and cleanly with such great tone if he had to do an embrochure change constantly..... All in the throat and diaphragm.
Embossing the reed plates makes the harps brighter/have more presence. Equal tuning makes the harps sound brighter. Tip scooping deadens some resonance.
The difference in tone is from breathing like others have stated moreso than embouchure. Or, at least that is what I have noticed. I am obviously not a tone monster like others mentioned here, but when it comes to SINGLE note playing, when OB tone suffers it tends to be from playing from the mouth and not gut.
There are a number of other factors to consider too. For example, a harp that can overdraw and a harp optimized to od will have different tone. From air loss, one might end up with a thinner sounding od then if they used a more airtight instrument.
Long story short, modding a harp can change the tone too. Sometimes this is good, sometimes not. Other factors that complicate this include the amount of drive desired from the PA or amp. OB players may generally perfer a cleaner tone.
I guess my point is if that is your generalization, can you point to some proof? I don't mean comparing a hobby player who obs to a pro who doesn't. I mean what pro BLUES ob players have thin tone compared to those non-ob BLUES players first listed?
Adam Gussow and Jason Ricci have huge tone and not only ob, but often don't tongue block. If the generalization comes from comparing those blues tones to non-blues players (Chris M., Howard Levy, etc) who are peers with Big Walter, etc, with NON-pro players, well I can point out just as many non-pro non-ob'ers with thing tone.
Am I making sense? I think a lot of times when this tone question comes up, someone is either comparing average players to pros (which might have little to do with obs) or clean players to dirty players (which might involve tb techniques or gear).
I think with something so broad as tone, being able to share specific sound bytes is very helpful...IF we understand the following:
YouTube audio is not nearly the quality of a CD or even good quality mp3.
Live recordings are often including variables the player can't control such as room sound, and FOH mix.
The recording gear often used is low quality.
The best test would be to compare top Chicago players and top OB blues players by their acoustic chops through relatively stable recording methods. Examples would include comparing Jason Ricci and Adam Gussow webcam vids to Ronnie Shellist webcam vids.
The vid Boris posted, which was excellent, makes me think of this too...
What I like about this vid (which I could dissect and discuss for hours) is specifically the comparison of Jason to Chris through the EXACT same rig on the EXACT same song. One of them is essentially a jazz great and world renowned overblow player and the other is a blues great and world renowned overblow player. I don't think anyone can argue that one of those tones is thin.
This video eliminates many variables when comparing THOSE two. Michale Rubin is involved as well, but he is using a different rig which, for this conversation, adds a variable that makes a comparison less fair regardless of who it favors.
Just my 2 cents as a tongue blocking overblower. Pucker playing is faster and more fluent but due to the amount of harp you actually have in your mouth, your tone is going to be thinner. Overblowers are predominatly pucker players.
Amongst the old dudes there were quite a few tongue blockers playing OTB harps on street corners. They needed to work hard to get their sound across. If you've got a lot of harp in your mouth it's gonna slow you down.
That said there are no rules and I'm just generalising. Alex Paclin's tone is beautiful and I think he's a pucker player.
I am at work and can't watch the videos, but what I have heard on this forum from the majority of overblowers is more of a chromatic sound goal. The upper registers of the harp thin out and most traditional blues players don't use them much but the new breed of fusion stuff I hear uses the high holes a ton. Fast, high holes, lead to thinner tone just out of the mechanics of the harp. This is all based on what I hear. I am an old school learner who plays stock harps, and know nothing of customizing and the extra sounds/tunings that you can get with one. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Interesting tangent on the eternal tone quest thread.
I like the vid with Chris playing crossharp blues thru JR's rig.. Very different than most CM stuff I've heard. I do think his tone comes accross fatter here - mostly because of the type of music and his approach to it , more so than than the rig.
We dont distinguish enough between good tone and killer fattness. Jason is an incredible player who has (imho) really good tone - but tone that is not in Gruenling's (for instance) high fat - big meat -super saturated, swim in it and grin catagory.
The modding / customizing effects on tone of the instrument itself is interesting too. It's something I'm just becoming aware of as I try different modded harps. ----------
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2011 10:24 AM
For the record, I hate that this song with Jason and Chris, where I just plain didn't play my best work, has become one of the most recognizable example of my work on the net. You never know when you are being recorded. Blah.
I don't like the term 'thin'. There are lots of words to describe tone. Bright, brassy, throaty, full, sweet, airy, cranky, pure... thin always seems to sound pejorative.
I've been thinking about what makes tone. Position can make a big difference. First position will sound sweeter than second. I think you can shape the sound of draw notes more since the air is coming into your mouth. On blow notes you have to try to shape the air before the reeds.
Another big factor is how cleanly you hit the hole. You can dirty up a note with a little bit of another hole. So is thin just a lot of blow notes hit cleanly? Higher keys sound 'thinner', at least until they become shrill.
I've been watching someone learn harmonica, and it seems a big factor in tone is consistency in breath force. You can crescendo or decrescendo, and warble, but if you do it unevenly it produces bad tone. I'd call that uneven tone though, maybe weak tone.
Where you project your sound from and how loud you play makes a difference too. My guess is that if you are playing loud a small fluctuation in airflow is less noticeable. Diagrammatic breathing produces a greater airflow than throat or mouth tone.
Open back harps are louder and brighter. Closed back harps are warmer.
I think even how you slide between notes and articulate. If you make tongue slaps cha cha ta ta sorts of sounds to end your notes you'll sound more percussive and less sweet.
I'm sure I have a point in there somewhere, but I've got to get set to have dinner with friends and I can't edit that into something. I'll just say, for some songs I deliberately close off most of my mouth pull the harp out of my mouth a bit. It's like kissing a frog (tentative, like your not sure it's a good idea) or blowing lightly on a feather in your hand that you don't want to blow away. I'm going for thin or sweet. I want to play just loudly enough so that I can keep a consistent tone
I'd say Chris was more than decent. That 'fat' tone is still there, but I find most blues guys play through mics, causing more 'fatness' (tube distortion).
