Stevelegh
127 posts
Mar 30, 2011
12:32 PM
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OK, I've been checking out the price on Seydel harps as some of you know.
After Kyser's post about Rockin' Ron's offer of Seydels Silvers for $100 including PT method, I decided to have a look on the Seydel US site for prices.
I want a Silver in equal temperament with PT valves. Ordering from the UK, this will cost me $162.00, give or take translation from Euros to Dollars.
The same harp from Seydel US will cost $127.00, but here's the kicker. The harp wil be made to order in Klingenthal and delivered to a US address.
Delivery to a UK address will cost around $14.00 included in the total, so it isn't about shipping.
What is going on?
I've sent a link to this post to Seydel in both the US and Germany.
If I'm missing something, I'll gladly recant, but to pay close to a third over the odds of a US customer doesn't seem a good deal for European customers.
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tookatooka
2259 posts
Mar 30, 2011
12:46 PM
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Welcome to Rip-Off Britain. Harps. Gas. Electric. Petrol. Diesel. Broadband. Phone. Water. F***ing everything.
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Stevelegh
128 posts
Mar 30, 2011
1:18 PM
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Hey Tooka,
I've called them out on this one. I don't want to be inflammatory, but I can't reconcile the difference here. I bought some Silvers last year and I've posted a link to this thread to my contact at Seydel as well as the US guy.
I'm welcome to be wrong and I'll happily post up with as many apologies as I need to, but if it's what it seems to be, I hope Seydel revise their European pricing structure.
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groyster1
962 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:05 PM
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you fellas need to import your harps from the usa
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pistolero
111 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:08 PM
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"Welcome to Rip-Off Britain. Harps. Gas. Electric. Petrol. Diesel. Broadband. Phone. Water. F***ing everything."
How do you think socialist states pay for all that "free" health care, social services, etc. There was just a big deal here a couple days ago about that, thread got locked.
There is no free lunch.
"The State" will gladly take care of you, but they will control you and all of your money. Same deal wherever you go.
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
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MrVerylongusername
1643 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:09 PM
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@Groyster1
...but from stuff outside of Europe, we get badly stung on import taxes. We can't win. Sucks.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2011 2:10 PM
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Buzadero
762 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:20 PM
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"...but from stuff outside of Europe, we get badly stung on import taxes. We can't win."
Smuggler's Blues.
What imported products carry the smallest import duty? And, how many harps can they conceal? What if they are disguised as 'vintage tractor parts'?
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Stevelegh
132 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:27 PM
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@Pistolero:
What are you talking about?
This has nothing to do with taxes of any kind. The price is a lot higher and that's it. Nothing is going to the Bank of England, the European Central Bank or the Federal Reserve.
It's purely about price.
I don't want to get into it about healthcare or anything. We pay taxes to accomodate those who don't contribute and that pisses me off, but I'd rather have that than anything else.
Sorry everyone, I rose to it a little....
Sadly, you're right. For some there is a 'free lunch' here, but that has nothing to do with product pricing.
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MrVerylongusername
1645 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:37 PM
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oops. duplicate post
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2011 2:37 PM
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pistolero
112 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:40 PM
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"This has nothing to do with taxes of any kind."
Maybe not.
I quoted the post that referred to harps and "everything else". If a drop of water or gasoline costs several times more in one country than another, I'll assume taxes have something to do with it. And that's talking about spending what little bit you do get to keep out of what you make AFTER paying the huge chunk of your income that goes as tribute to The State.
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
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harmonicanick
1140 posts
Mar 30, 2011
3:25 PM
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Steve do you really find Seydel worth the effort?
I am a Golden Melody man but have tried Seydel and they just aint worth it (all that money I mean) I would rather have LO's for value
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groyster1
963 posts
Mar 30, 2011
3:43 PM
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@verylong
theres got to be a way you fellas play great music and have contributed so much to the world it does suck
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
609 posts
Mar 30, 2011
7:37 PM
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You are complaining of a difference of around 75 percent or something, but There is a HUGE hole in your logic. They are located in Germany, so they do business in Euros. Your Logic only works if they were located in the US. You have to use Euros, not dollars as your base currency. Try that and you'll find you are paying 10 percent more, not 75 percent.
This might have something to do with it, European Union products are subject to a 20 percent value added tax when they get to the UK, or maybe it's something else to explain the 10 percent.
So, the problem is devaluation of the British Pound. The flip side is your exports are really cheap for people in the EU to buy.
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
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"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2011 7:41 PM
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conjob
113 posts
Mar 30, 2011
7:59 PM
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that is a pretty complicated economic question. the short answer is because seydel will make more money that way. In the UK taxes are lower and real incomes are higher than in the US so perhaps seydels research has indicated consumers are willing to pay more. also the market for harps may be less competitive in the UK. due to import duties in the uk and other factors, the 2 markets are able to be separated.
Here is a very general explanation from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
i'm actually really interested in this kind of stuff. as an aside i can get a seydel 1847 for AU$100 here in australia and a crossover for AU$92 (although i just bought several crossovers for less than AU$65 including shipping from rockin ron) and a lee oskar costs more than a golden melody, special 20 or a marine band.
@tooka most of the things on your list attract huge government subsidies in countries like the US and Australia. so for example you may actually pay more at the pump for petrol but we pay the difference in our taxes, car registration and social costs. So someone like my self who rides a bike and catches trains still has to pay for the fuel consumption and construction of roads for someone who drives. I don't mind thats just how countries work. Not really unlike... actually never mind.
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strawwoodclaw
224 posts
Mar 30, 2011
8:19 PM
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wouldn't be better to buy your Seydel harmonicas from harmonicasdirect here in the UK?
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Aussiesucker
813 posts
Mar 30, 2011
9:54 PM
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It's all about marketing and pushing the consumer to pay the highest possible price & still maintain or increase market share. Nothing really makes sense when big business is let loose on the consumer.
What we pay in Oz $'s from online US stores seems cheap as our $ is exceptionally strong ie above parity with the US. But with harps we need to order 5 or 6 at a time to be in front and absorb the freight cost. But it's not always this way. Also locally what we pay for everyday food items is expensive. Crazy as it seems we pay $1.50 a ltr for diesel or petrol, $1 a litre for milk, $3 a litre for bottled water. No I don't buy bottled water & never have but lots of people must as water is Coca Cola's biggest selling product line! Be good if my car would run on milk!
And I love bananas but this week they cost $12.99 a kg ie nearly $4 each! Ouch. But Harmonicas are cheap as I just ordered locally a Lee Oskar Low F which cost me $53.
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Kingley
1478 posts
Mar 30, 2011
10:35 PM
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Ok people here are the facts on the prices using a Seydel 1847 Classic as an example.
In the UK a Seydel 1847 Classic costs 68.99GBP.
In mainland Europe it costs 72Euros which is 63.25GBP. In the USA the price is 89.95USD which is 55.89GBP. The price differences are of course due to exchange rates and other economic factors.
Now if you want to save 13.10GBP per Seydel 1847 Classic harmonica then you need to get someone in the USA to buy them and send you them as a "gift" to avoid import taxes. However once you figure in import taxes and postage and of course the wait time. Then it becomes more expensive to buy them from the USA. Unless of course you buy in bulk.
My best advice is to buy them from Harmonicas Direct. He sends all orders over 60GBP via special delivery so you have them within 24 hours. Peter Blyth (Harmonicas Direct) is also a really great guy to deal with.
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Stevelegh
133 posts
Mar 31, 2011
1:54 AM
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OK, looking at the factors of exchange rates etc and with a clearer head (bear in mind at the post time of 12:32pm, it's evening in the UK), we're still paying over the odds a little. At the moment, GBP has slumped against the Euro, which will factor in the extra cost. Elk River mentioned this and funnily enough I was speaking to someone in my industry about this only yesterday. Funny how you work and play and never the twain shall meet. It just wasn't on my radar when it comes to harmonicas.
However, there is the issue of a price differential compared to US prices. If you buy from Seydel US, as it appears to be a US company, aren't the import taxes factored in to the cost?
So taking a look at this and with the possible solutions some of you guys helpfully offered (like Harmonicas Direct), it seems that Seydel are offering their product on their site at full list price. This would make sense if they are looking to protect their retailers across Europe.
I've spoken to and emailed Peter Blyth with what I want and asked him to obtain a price for me.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2011 1:55 AM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
611 posts
Mar 31, 2011
3:09 AM
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The US has no import taxes on harmonicas. Good old Adam Smith capitalism.
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"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
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captainbliss
505 posts
Mar 31, 2011
3:21 AM
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@Kingley:
/My best advice is to buy them from Harmonicas Direct. He sends all orders over 60GBP via special delivery so you have them within 24 hours. Peter Blyth (Harmonicas Direct) is also a really great guy to deal with./
And that, Sir, is *excellent* advice! I'm a very happy customer of Peter's and recommend Harmonicas Direct wholeheartedly.
@conjob:
/huge government subsidies/
If only this were a geopolitics / economics forum where I could start ranting about the WTO.
But...
It isn't!
Relax, breathe in, breathe out...
Oooh!
Train piece!
@Stevelegh:
Have you contacted fellow MBHer Jim? I hear he does fine things with Seydels and valves and, IIRC, he is open to part-exchange deals. Worth heading over to Jim's website and dropping him an email?
xxx
EDITED to fix my html
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2011 3:24 AM
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Stevelegh
134 posts
Mar 31, 2011
3:25 AM
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Hi Elk River,
OK, so things are starting to even up now. German VAT is at 19%.
@Cap'n:
Thanks, I'll take a look.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2011 3:26 AM
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jim
785 posts
Mar 31, 2011
3:36 AM
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You have to pay 19% VAT in EU. Plus currency exchange. The result sucks.
You can try to order them to a place outside EU and then smuggle stuff back. However, the wait will be longer. Plus shipping. So this makes a big difference only if you order a set.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Andrew
1315 posts
Mar 31, 2011
5:03 AM
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"If...gasoline costs several times more in one country than another, I'll assume taxes have something to do with it."
Erm, you might find that some part is played by the fact that Britain has about 7 oil wells, whereas California alone has more than 100,000. But it's a long shot, I'll grant you that.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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groyster1
965 posts
Mar 31, 2011
6:26 AM
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@conjob
"in the uk taxes are lower than in the us" who are you trying to kid? taxes are way higher in the uk than in the us
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Stevelegh
138 posts
Mar 31, 2011
1:08 PM
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Please read below the very kind reply from Lars Seifert, Managing Director of Sydel. I am honoured to recieve a response from a person in his position:
Hello Steve,
thank you for your email.
In order to explain the different prices for US-customers and customers in the UK we would have to look at all features that influence our calculation which is made in EURO, since we are based in Klingenthal/Germany and all our harmonicas are made here in Germany, as you know.
The main features which influence the calculation are exchange rates, taxation in the region of sale, taxation in the region of production, fees for export within the EU, fees for export outside the EU and many more. Taking into account that those features change quite regularly and the conditions themselves are subject to frequent change we have to calculate the prices so that we are able to handle the risk for a small manufacturer like we are.
Knowing all the conditions and features at the time we made the calculation I can tell you that the prices were about the same for all regions in the world. You know that the world has gone through some major changes within the last month and years and we did not change our prices in common for the last four years at least. Just take the 1847 CLASSIC which we have release in March 2007. The initial price was 74,95€(including VAT) and $89.95 (no VAT included, will be added at the point of sale) and it still is the same in the newest price list for 2011. So you can see that our prices are very stable, especially if you compare them to similar products in the market, even if the conditions influencing our calculation are very variable.
By the way, did you see the new release on our website today, the new model SESSION STEEL. This might be a great alternative for you, see here: www.seydel1847.de , especially price wise.
I hope I could answer your question to your satisfaction and thank you again for ordering SEYDEL harmonicas.
Lars Seifert
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conjob
116 posts
Mar 31, 2011
2:25 PM
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I consider that to be only half the reason but at least you got a response.
@groyster i am still unsure as to whether or not i should answer your query so you get the long answer.
I am very interested in politics (and religion for that matter). It is a subject that i discuss frequently. As noted by many people on this forum there are plenty of places on the internet where these topics can be discussed. None of them are places where i would go for interesting discussion because of the way people conduct themselves when discussing these topics. Over the past few days this forum has become a place i don't want to visit because of the way several people have conducted themselves.
It is sometimes difficult to separate an interest in politics and a desire to not talk about them on this forum.
I am not "trying to kid" anyone. This implies that i am being deliberately dishonest. I tried to answer a question about economics, because i have spent a lot of time reading about and studying similar subjects.
I would be happy to accept being called wrong, misguided or naive but being called a liar is something different altogether. I have no desire to debate taxation or any other topic on this forum. I come here to learn about playing the harmonica and i have learned a lot here. I saw this as an area where i had some knowledge to offer on a sort of harp related thread so i did so. I have not posted on any of the recent political threads (even though i have been tempted to) because i enjoy coming to this forum and these threads diminish that enjoyment.
If we were at a bar i would gladly discuss any of this stuff because i find it interesting to hear other viewpoints.
In answer to your query here is some world bank data:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.TAX.TOTL.CP.ZS
I don't wish for there to be any back and forth about it, there may be other viewpoints and so on, if i'm wrong i'm "kidded" and not "trying to kid" and there was no political agenda behind me mentioning it in the first place i was just using what i thought was an accepted fact to explain seydel's pricing policy.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
619 posts
Apr 03, 2011
8:22 AM
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Half the reason? The exchange rate alone accounts for all of it but ten percent of the supposed difference. it might account for 100 percent for all I know, you can't change your price everyday based on how the rate changes, you base it on the rate when you set your prices. When I did the math, it was based on the rates the day I did the math.
That stuff goes on I'm sure, but they aren't Coca Cola, they have about two dozen employees.
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"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2011 8:24 AM
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nacoran
3952 posts
Apr 03, 2011
11:53 AM
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Sales tax, VAT, import/export duties, shipping, volume discounts, exchange rates, mark-up, competition, supply & demand, supply disruptions, energy costs... there are so many places that costs can fluctuate. Even how taxes are collected makes a difference. In one country you might be paying higher property taxes. In another higher sales taxes. In another one you might be paying lower taxes but more private or public user fees. When all those things interact you get all sorts of ways to buy a harp. Here in NYS smokers drive to the Reservations to avoid cigarette taxes. Of course, the state just raises another tax to make up for lost revenue, so we all pay the tax man one way or the other. No value judgement. It's a balance of services versus cost. It does get complicated though when you have to deal with multiple layers of regulations that weren't designed to play nice together. It's complicated.
It's still pretty amazing when you think about it, that you can type into a computer and payment will go flying off and a harmonica from another part of the world will come to your door. :)
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Nate
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conjob
120 posts
Apr 03, 2011
6:36 PM
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dave, my understanding of exchange rates is that by their definition they couldn't account for a price difference but you're probably right fluctuations could do it.
anyway i don't know anything about how seydel do business so it's all speculation.
as an aside i learned a lot from your you tube videos so i probably owe you a couple of home brews if youre ever in sydney.
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BigBlindRay
105 posts
Apr 03, 2011
8:03 PM
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Hey MBHers
I briefly skimped through this thread - But if i were concerned about the price of Seydel harps - Maybe I'd just bite the bullet - pay a bit extra and get a decent custom harp?
@Conjob - when you coming to a Jam dude? :)
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Big Blind Ray's YouTube Channel
Mavis and her China Pigs
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conjob
121 posts
Apr 03, 2011
10:51 PM
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i don't think i'm good enough yet. i might trouble you for some more lessons soon though. when are you moving back to the inner west? theres no blues in the eastern suburbs.
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