Zadozica
51 posts
Mar 28, 2011
3:08 PM
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I know how to count the 12 bars blues format and the chord changes, and I know how to play the 12 bars in a lick format (i.e., 4 licks of the I chord, 2 licks of the 4 chord, 2 licks of the I chord, 1 lick of the V chord, 1 lick of the IV chord and then the 2 measure turnaround)
What I cannot do is keep count in my head where I am when improvising (playing just myself, no background music). I try to count my foot taps but I lose it when I move to focusing on the notes.
My question is, do any of you actually keep count in your head when you are improvising so that when you get to the 5th and 6th measure you move to the IV chord and when you get to the 9th you move to a V chord lick?
I would be interested in your perspective.
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timeistight
31 posts
Mar 28, 2011
3:14 PM
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I don't count; I hear the changes coming around in my mind's ear.
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eharp
1246 posts
Mar 28, 2011
3:57 PM
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counting and playing is WAAAAAY above most of our abilities.
it needs to be felt.
i find it helpful to my timekeeping if i sway to the music.
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Zadozica
52 posts
Mar 28, 2011
4:03 PM
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I can feel it IF I am improvising to accompaniment but not if I am playing solo.
How do you stay aware that you are hitting on the beat playing solo?
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waltertore
1234 posts
Mar 28, 2011
4:39 PM
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Don't worry about it. When you are by yourself you can keep any time/chord changes you want. If you are really improvising it will flow smooth as silk. Thinking instantly kills improvising. Most people can't truly improvise because they can't turn off the thinking. They learn a bunch of stuff that they can reproduce easily but often are thinkng of what is coming ahead, when to do a break, bring it down, bend a certian note, emulating anothers tone/riff, when to end the song..... You can hear it their playing when you get to a certain point with mastering the musical dimension. Walter
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Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2011 5:26 AM
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Baker
113 posts
Mar 29, 2011
5:07 AM
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As others have said you need to feel where the changes are. This is a pretty unconscious thing for me now.
Try singing the melody of a 12bar song in your head while you improvise. I find this approach helps when I'm playing on non blues based songs which I don't know. It not only helps you understand where you are in the progression but also gives you something to hang your improvisation off.
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Miles Dewar
814 posts
Mar 29, 2011
8:59 AM
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"Try singing the melody of a 12bar song in your head while you improvise. I find this approach helps when I'm playing on non blues based songs which I don't know. It not only helps you understand where you are in the progression but also gives you something to hang your improvisation off."
That helps. You can easily him the song. But "Hum" it in your mind.
If you can sing the song in your mind and "Hear" it, it's not hard to "See" when the changes are happening. And then...... Just change.
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groyster1
958 posts
Mar 29, 2011
11:08 AM
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try counting 1234 2234 3234 and so on until you get to the 12bar turnaround
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roadharp
65 posts
Mar 29, 2011
3:13 PM
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Find a 12 bar song muddy waters baby please don't go . Now first 4bars are the 1 chord next two are the lv chord next two back to the l chord then 1 bar of the v chord then 1 bar of the 4 chord then then two bars of the 1 that's a 12 bar l lv v progression.count it out 1234 2234 3234 4234 5234 6234 7234 8234 9234 10234 11234 12234 back to the top .this helped me a lot and look for Adams counting through the changes.
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Zadozica
57 posts
Mar 29, 2011
3:18 PM
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I can count the changes against a song and I do count as both groyster1 and roadharp suggest. However, when I play by myself(not with a song), I cannot maintain the count and play at the same time.
Maybe it just takes A LOT more practice......
Thanks all for your suggestions.
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Philippe
86 posts
Mar 29, 2011
3:30 PM
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Zadozica: I was exactly where you are a few months ago, and am slowly getting better. I recommend:
1 - Study chorus forms. This is very helpful to keep you from getting lost.
2 - Whenever you are listening to blues and doing nothing else (e.g. listening to music while riding the bus), count through the changes in your head, gently move your foot to keep time. You want to build timing and start anticipating the changes.
a) count through each beat of the bars (1234-2234-3234-..)
b) count only the bars (1-2-3-4-5..). If you make too many mistakes go back to a.
c) Start playing with jam tracks and pay careful attention to the changes
3. Bring these two things together: knowledge of chorus forms and anticipation of the changes/timing. Bring them into unaccompanied improvisation.
Good timing in unaccompanied improv is hard, and I am still working on it. I sometimes create a song, record myself and count through the bars while listening to the recording. Sometimes it's a mess!
Hope this helps, good luck!
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groyster1
960 posts
Mar 29, 2011
3:36 PM
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I am reading a book about little walter and it is noted he had problems with timing so dont feel bad
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nacoran
3936 posts
Mar 29, 2011
7:49 PM
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Break it down into 3 sets of four so you don't have to count so high. Alternately, I take off my shoes so I can count to 12. :)
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Lightnin' Harp
3 posts
Mar 29, 2011
10:21 PM
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Sonny Boy 2 never worried about timing, everyone followed him! Seriously, the more you concentrate on the changes, the more chance of messing it up. Relax & just let it come naturally. Good luck.
LH
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
20 posts
Mar 30, 2011
2:20 AM
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Loved the question, i'm in the middle of it, I learned a few extra's by the answers, cheers,
1, Start walking, I walk my dog for 2 hours a day, counting works while walking a1 2 3 4, 1 a2 3 4, 1 2 a3 4, 1 2 3 a4, a1......mix these up in whatever mix and off course the 16 bar pattern. Make corresponding patterns with the 12 bar changes.
2. Gradually get the counting into playing using familiar songs, patterns, rithims.....without the backing track its fun to see how fast that one works :-)
3. Hear what you are going to play,
what most pro's forget is that they know a vast amount of licks, in count, by heart, I, we haven't got that luxury. So when improvising I use licks from which I know the count by heart and mix them up slowly. Adding extra notes, leaving notes away.....
At the moment I'm at a stage I can trust my feet to go on in the beat and sometimes I play freely already. Losing my count half of the time, and when I do, a pause for getting into counting again works just fine for I havent lost the beat. Off course, when built towards it at the moment you lost the count.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2011 2:23 AM
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Barry C.
212 posts
Mar 30, 2011
9:24 AM
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i believe adam has suggested anyone of intermediate level should be able to do this? anyone but me that is as i still can't...but i do hear/feel the changes.
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