The best thing for EVERY harp player I've always recommended is to go to a vocal coach and get some breathing lessons and even go further than that and get the vocal lessons and you'll finally learn about really good breathing technique is all about and it's very similar to a vocalist. Most people use the top third of their lung capacity and force things too much because of excessive breath force, which thins the tone considerably and BADLY shrinks down the size of their air passages. I've talked about this tons of times but with the vast majority of harp players, it basically goes in one ear and out the other, and for every thread that talks about breathing, time, and groove, there are EASILY at least 150 threads alone on the subject of mics, amps, and effect pedals just on this forum alone, let alone other harp forums as well, so that tells quite a LOT about the thinking of the average player and proper breathing will get better tone both quicker AND cheaper than wasting money on the gear aspect, but too many players are too freaking hard headed to understand that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
when I met Bill Dicey he commented that I used more diaphram than he had ever seen. I had no idea what he was talking about. Then he hit my stomach and said see what I mean? I found all that by accident. I started playing on the streets and found that I needed to be able to project my voice a long ways. I would get a sore throat real quick if I didn't use my gut. I did the same with the harp, only wrecked them real quick early on. Later I went on to study martial arts for 25 years and learned that my diaphram use was very import in the art. I use a lot of deep long to medium and short bursts of diaphram with singing and harp. When I based my band out of Brussels, one of the Belgian opera singers and I became friends. She commented that I could become an opera singer if I wanted. She also commented that I used a ton of diaphram. I still enjoy doing a short burst of operatic type singing with diaphram, vibrato, etc. I remember backing Frankie Lee in the oakland clubs. He was famous for singing around the crowd without a mic and keeping up with the band. That always inspired me to develop that kind of power. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Groyster, it's not an "either/or" scenario. Good tone at source is vital, but if you want to play out with a band you need mics & amps, unless you are playing purely acoustically (no mics/amps/PAs)...which limits you to small rooms & small hushed audiences.
Good gear enhances good tone. If your gear is letting you down, then the tone that comes out the speakers won't be as good as it can be, no matter what you feed it. Whatever the weakest link in the chain is, it then becomes the lowest common denominator. 7LimitJI has great tone...he also has great gear.
I agree 100% with barbequebob.I had seen videos and read about this technique right at the very start of my playing (almost 2 yrs now) and chose to dismiss it as unimportant...HOW WRONG I WAS ! Being the member who 7limitjl is teaching it was obvious right away ,having heard Cameron play ,that I had virtually no tone whatsoever.So now much of my practice time is taken up trying to breath from my diaphragm...for me not as easy as it first looks. It would be lnteresting to hear how other members developed "GOOD TONE".
Gear may enhance, but not really by all that much because the source, being the player, is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT and if the player's acoustic tone and chops, breath control, and ability to play resonantly is weak, his amplified harp tone is gonna soound weak no matter what, and that's the cold, hard, brutal TRUTH. Gear can at times be nothing more than like a boob job or butt job for harp players because without the stuff I've mentioned, all the gear in the world will NEVER make you sound better, only expose all of your warts and I stand by that 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Anytime you play live in a reasonable sized venue, with an electric band, the audience only hears the final result out of the speakers...if something between you and those speakers is screwing up your tone...that's what will be pumped out of those speakers. Therefore the whole chain is important. I stand by that 101% (BTW I think you accidentally lent on the "!" key, there's quite a few of them there).
No gear will make you sound good, if you don't make a good sound to begin with, I don't really see how gear can be a "boob job"...if it is, Bob you surely have some 44FF with that REAL bassman, with Phillips 6L6WGB, etc.! ;-)
The difference is that gear you can just pay for, tone you have to work at...I guess that's why folks discuss gear so much, because it's easier than working. Players with great tone still discuss, search out & buy great gear. I don't really think that we have such different viewpoints Bob.
Very rarely do players get complimented on their tone from someone in the audience-they may get compliments like"I love your playing"-or"You sound great"-very rarely will you hear"You've got great tone",unless that audience member happens to be a harp player. I still believe tone is a subjective thing-but I agree with Bob-it all starts with the players acoustic ability. Garbage in-garbage out. The OP states "in search of good tone"-there is a huge disparity between "good tone" and "great tone"-diaphragmatic breathing is a huge step towards great tone. Bob can surely attest to my example: Sugar Ray Norcia-that man has GREAT tone-I have met and seen Ray play quite a few times over the years-you can actually see his stomach move when he plays,indicating diaphragmatic movement. Ray possess some of the most pure,bluesey tone I have ever heard.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2011 8:27 AM
I wanted to add another component to this tone discussion. Along with diaphragmatic breath control... I would like to say a relaxed light breath helps quite a bit. If you can relax and play softly your embouchure has a tendency to adjust to the proper pitch of the note (bent or otherwise). When you play softly your technique needs to be spot on because the pressure of your hardest wind is not helping bend or move the reed. So it's the volume of air coming from the mouth/throat/lungs/diaphragm air column. Then when you need to bring the dynamics you've got head room. Also when you play softly you let the amp do the work and you spend less on harps.
I'd suggest trying to always breathe from the diaphragm. If you have a sports background, you might also do so regularly (like a singer). At no point in time is it of any advantage to not breathe like that.
I believe it is foolish to think that good acoustic tone and good amped tone are 100% dependent on each other. I've heard with my own ears a player with good acoustic tone sound like crap amped up. It isn't that hard to be bad at. Can you have great amped tone and poor acoustic tone? Probably not...but you can for sure sound great acoustically and than like crap with electronics. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 3/23/11
"I believe it is foolish to think that good acoustic tone and good amped tone are 100% dependent on each other" Believe what you will-but most of the top pro's-Kim Wilson,Mark Hummel,RJ Mischo,Jerry Portony,Rick Estrin, agree-great acoustic tone and breath control directly correspond to great amped playing. Now,if the guy you state had good acoustic tone ,but sounded like crap amped,what amp and mic was he using? If your playing through a Radio Shack mic and a Pignose in a large venue,or if the PA is not set up correctly,or the soundman is having a bad night,then that may contribute to the poor amped sound.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2011 8:59 AM
If you are a weekend warrior, you will more likely have the tone setup you like coming out onstage and to the audience than a touring pro blues level guy. You most likely will know the venue people and can get there way early to set things up the way you want. The problem is each soundman has his/her idea of what sounds right. Like recording engineers, they have their own "style". You can try all you want to convince them of what you want, but when the show starts, it is in their hands. That is why when I played full time I focused on the actual sounds we made onstage being heard by the band. I learned this from hanging around Willie Nelson gigs backstage. If you feel good, a bad mix on the mains will not be heard by most. Your good vibes will be heard.
When I use to open for the band The Call, they traveled with their own soundman and used the clubs gear. I saw many a battle going on at the mixing table between the house soundman and the Call's.
Unfortunately, most weekend warrior bands struggle with knowing how to keep a quiet stage volume......... Most have no idea how loud they are playing, and adrenilin kicks in and each instrument tries to catch up volume wise, to the what they think is the right volume. Same thing happens at most jams. It takes years of playing onstage night after night to understand how your instrument meshes at the right volume with the other instruments. Rehearsing in basements and on ones own will never teach this.
Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
When I first met Ray,he was playing through a Blackface Fender Deluxe,with an old Astatic 332 or 335. Then,Sonny came out with the 410. Ray bought one,along with one of Sonnys hot mics. The combo took Rays playing to another level-Ray told me Sonnys amp was great,but what really made it click was the mic. Thats the difference between Kim,Rick,Ray,Mark and RJ from intermediate level players-they would all sound great playing through a tin can,but harp specific amps and mics enhance their playing-not so much for the intermediate player.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2011 9:41 AM
@tmf714 - you agreed with my point. Gear does make a difference.
5F6H is dead-on. Those guys all use quality gear. I can't think of any examples where the "pros" use crappy gear. If they do, they probably had some sort of intervention along the lines of a pedal or something to help them. Furthermore, how often has anyone actually heard them through crappy gear and thought it was their dream tone?
To further illustrate my point...play acoustically. Then play plugged in. Do a crappy job of of cupping the mic. Then do a good job. Two different tones with almost every mic - proving that you need skill beyond acoustic playing to play amped.
Now mess with the eq. Add too many mids and step as far as possible in front of the amp. Hopefully your ears don't bleed. Now pull out all the bass. It changes the tone.
Bottom line is gear effects your tone. If you don't know how to use it even the best mic/amp you can come up with can end up with crappy tone.
I swear at least 50% of the time someone says so and so sounded great through this piece of crap gear, they aren't being honest with themselves. Mad Cat wouldn't use that Peavey if it sounded like crap. The truth of the matter is he is using something relatively unique and the evaluation of it being "bad" comes from preconieved notions and not reality.
Give me an isolated harp track with good tone and mixing software and I can make it sound like crap. However, if it sounds like crap to begin with, your SOL. Gear 100% for a fact alters tone which means it does matter.
That being said, I do all the wrong things all the time and am over looking for the holy grail. I understand that for 99% of the audience, how I play is enough to cover up using a less than ideal rig. Heck, last gig I used a solid state overdrive pedal straight to the PA with no other effects. No one cared. I know I didn't sound like I normally do, but no one else did. For the last couple months before that, I'd gone to my pedal board and the PA - no amp at all - no one noticed....it was good enough. Ideal? No. Record worth? No. As good as with my amps? No. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 3/23/11
"When I first met Ray,he was playing through a Blackface Fender Deluxe,with an old Astatic 332 or 335. Then,Sonny came out with the 410. Ray bought one,along with one of Sonnys hot mics. The combo took Rays playing to another level-Ray told me Sonnys amp was great,but what really made it click was the mic. Thats the difference between Kim,Rick,Ray,Mark and RJ from intermediate level players-they would all sound great playing through a tin can,but harp specific amps and mics enhance their playing-not so much for the intermediate player."
Correct regarding intermediate players. It is totally ridiculous to think they'd sound great through a tin can. I know you are only half serious, but you again prove the point that a good player can sound not as good depending on the rig. If the rig didn't matter, than why would he sound better through a different rig?
It takes lots of time to even figure out your tone. Most of todays players favor amplified, custom harp, custom mic, custom amp, set ups. I prefer the bite of the acoustic tone and playing off the mic. These things evolve slowly over the years in a pretty seamless way if you are at it full time. People with money can run around in circles buying all the buzz word gear in hopes of sounding better and look like a frantic example of confusion.
I remember when I was playing with albert collins one night. He handed me his tele and I thought"man, now I am going to show the world that famous Iceman tone through my fingers!". Was I disapointed when it sounded like me....... One has to experiment to find ones tone. Unfortunately most pros are so broke they don't have as many opportunities to buy all the new stuff like so many with regular good paying jobs. Look at how many of the greats played on cheap gear, and funky harps. They had to figure out how to make that stuff sound right. My friend use to manage otis rush and was a guitar luthier. I was in his shop and he handed me this old red guitar and said try it out. I swear every fret buzzed or was dead sounding. He said guess whose guitar that is? I figured it was some closet relic somebody brought in. Wrong. It was Otis's guitar and my friend had to pry it from his hands to restore it. Otis feared using one that was set up right because he had gotten so use to playing on worn out stuff. I knew an old guy that owned a pawn shop on chicagos south side. He said junior wells would come in as young kid and he would give him a dollar to pawn his harps. He said most of them never worked right. He said he would often pawn them in the morning and get them out for the gig that night. Yet these guys put out sounds that the new players with all their fancy gear can't touch. Why? Because all good players develop their own sound if they are really doing it right.
Louisiana Red is probably the greatest living example of how ones tone comes through no matter what they play on. People know he loves all guitars and on any given gig he may have a dozen or so audience members brought by or gave him recently. I have seen him on vintage classic ones to heavy metal looking things, and it all sounded like red. I continue to imagine my harp on the rack is really in my hands. I have learned to make a lot of sounds that way don't come easy on the rack. Imagination is more powerful than most realize. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
There are no magic tone generators. There are few short cuts. Like anything else in life that is worth having, you have to work at it.
A friend of mine has been playing for about six years. He practices several hours a day. He's got a plan and he works at it. He has beautiful tone. He works on songs. He's a humble guy. He respectfully asks questions. He pays attention to what's happening on stage. He listens and learns from other players. He's a man with a plan. It shows in his playing.
Other players look at him with envy, because they look at him and think he's been playing for a short time. They don't realize that he's been working at his craft much more intently than they ever have.
I know other people that have been playing much longer that essentially bullshit their way through playing. They don't practice very much. They don't listen. They don't pay attention to what's happening around them. They aren't making music with other people. They are rarely locked into the other players on the stage. Some of these guys sound pretty good, but their playing is nothing special or spectacular.
Most of the professional players mentioned in this thread really worked at their sound. It didn't just happen. They sacrificed a great deal and they practiced a lot. They focused on listening to others and try to recreate those sounds. A lot of that work was by trial and error. Eventually, they found their own sound and developed their own style.
Regarding gear, guys like Gary Onofrio have made some pretty cool equipment and nice user manuals to describe how to dial that gear in to achieve a very pleasing tone to many. They have made it easier for a guy of average skills to sound pretty darn good. However, the player still needs to learn microphone handling techniques.
When you find a person whose playing really stands out (like the pro players mentioned above), it's almost guaranteed that they worked at it long and hard. They also probably accumulated a lot of stuff (gear) along the way.
I think in Rays case,the gear inspired him-it brought out the nuances of the music,the underlying tones and notes that maybe before he had not been able to hear and realize. I don't think it made his playing better-he was already great-it just gave him room to experiment with his mic technique and tonal changes he was able to finally hear.
Sugar Ray from Sonnys website- I have learned through years of experience, that playing the harp too hard through an amp that doesn’t respond to your efforts does very little to improve your technique and overall sound. The Sonny Jr. Four Ten produces a pure quality of tone and volume that is rich, heavy and fat, which enables me to hear and feel the nuances and subtleties of my playing, and in turn gives me more freedom to play creatively. This exciting and versatile amp inspires me and my band on each and every gig.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2011 10:43 AM
/There is a learning curve from playing acoustic to amped for sure./
Yes! It's been my experience that mic technique - cupping or positioning oneself off a free air mic - has a *huge* impact on what comes out front of house.
@All:
Front Of House Tone = Acoustic Tone + Gear Technique + Gear
???
@Joe_L:
/There are no magic tone generators./
One lesson with an opera singer (on supporting the voice, projection, posture and resonance) had a magical effect on my tone...
@walter - If gear made all of the sound, Otis would have been screwed as that red Epiphone was destroyed by over zealous baggage handling at the beginning of a tour. Apparently, the made him check the guitar. The baggage clerk tossed it on conveyor belt. The case opened. The guitar landed on the asphalt and shattered.
@tmf714 - When RJ lived in Nor Cal, I went to a lot of his gigs. I don't think he owns a harp specific amp. I know he had a Meteor for a short time. Usually when he's played through a harp specific amp, it's almost always been loaned to him.
The last time that I saw Kim Wilson, he was playing through a couple of brown face Fenders that someone told me belonged to the late John Nuzzo. I've never heard him sound better. (That doesn't mean he hasn't sounded better. It means I've never heard him sound better.)
In my opinion, I believe amplified tone is a very subjective thing. What one guy likes, another can't stand. Equipment can inspire one to play and practice.
I spoke at length with RJ at Amandas Rollercoaster in Phoenix-he said he is trying to stay away from playing through amps because noboby can get his harp right in the mix-here is a nice example of RJ playing through a Brown Concert with a Fender Reverb tank-check out the mix of acoustic and amped-great example of fantastic acoustic tone.
Groyster, once you play through the PA, you are not acoustic, the PA becomes "gear", yes, it is designed not to colour the sound (some even achieve this), but what you hear FOH is amplified. Not all PAs are great, not all soundmen are great, I'd rather play through a decently set up PA that a lot of amps (conversely, I have been somewhat taken aback when sitting in with someone else's PA, especially when given a "spare/unused/un-set-up" channel)...but whether it is you, or the soundman twiddling the knobs, it's still gear, it is still amplified. If you're the band leader & harp player, you need to have a handle on both.
I dunno, it seems to me that IF we are talking about progressing as a harp player, tone must come before gear. I can learn a song but if my tone sucks, I am not going to play it in front of people and certainly not amplified. To me it's an evolutionary process - get your tone, learn songs, get amplified.
I like the breast implant analogy - nothing like the real thing. Applies to tone as well.
Zadozica, how do you know when you have "got tone", I mean when to stop, then look at amplification? Most people get to what they think is a competant level of playing (poor tone, good tone, great tone, whatever), then go & gig...tone is relative, it can often be improved over years. I know guys today who despite having good tone 10 or 15yrs ago, still work at it, still have little epiphanies, reach little milestones and are rightly proud of still being able to improve & hone their sound. Your analagy is a little simplistic, tone, songs & a method of getting them across all dovetail. I don't think it's helpful to view them as unrelated aspects, or stipulate a rigid order as to how/when they should be "ticked off" in their little boxes.
The breast bit ...well, you've lost me altogether, if I can hear somebody play harp (assuming that I am not having a psychotic break & someone really IS playing one) then the harp is "real" & has "a" tone, whether acoustic/amplified/good tone/poor tone/whether I like it, or not?
@tmf714 - Nice video. Thanks for sharing it. RJ has some of the nicest tone of anyone out there.
@Zadozica - You are right. It is an evolutionary process.
I used to feel somewhat similar. I didn't feel ready to get out and play because I didn't think my skills matched up to the harp players on the scene. My skills didn't match up then. They don't match up today.
When I was first starting to learn, the harp players on the local scene were James Cotton, Junior Wells, Billy Branch, Sugar Blue and Carey Bell. There were other guys, too. Louis Myers, Big Leon Brooks, Good Rockin' Charles, Little Mac Simmons and a shitload of other guys that were making classic records and active in the 50's.
In retrospect, I wish I had gotten up the courage to play in public much sooner. I passed up chances to sit in with some great and legendary players, because I didn't feel like I was ready. (The funny thing was other people had more confidence in my skills than I had.)
Screw the checklist...
There is little substitute for experience on stage. Being on stage playing with live bands gives a person feedback like few other experiences. You learn how to interact with other musicians. You learn how to entertain, how to accompany other artists. You learn how to mess with equipment. These processes are almost always learned via trial and error.
Many places that I go are bars and small clubs. Typically, they do not have sound people. The band members are the sound people. Few instruments, if any are mic'ed into a sound system. It's usually a vocal mic or two plugged into the PA. If you don't know how to set it up and use it, you're screwed.
It's worth learning as much as you can as early as you can. If playing amplified motivates a person to play more frequently, I think they should go for it. At some point, every harp player that has picked up the instrument stinks. Maintaining motivation can be challenging. If buying a small amp and a mic, motivates a person to play more, it's a cheap investment. Playing more frequently will usually make a person a better player.
The OP provided some great advice that will benefit a lot of people.
First off, I don't like to complicate things so maybe that is why you see it as simplistic.....
Second off, my post regarding tone, songs, amp applies to beginners and not to those who have a higher skill set.
How do I know when I have "got tone"? When I stop cringing after hearing my recordings. Until you hit a certain level of compentancy, I don't believe tone is relative at all - it is a learned skill; a skill that can be improved but should take precedence over gear. But hey, if you want gear, get it.
The breast part was a joke on trying to artificially enhance your capabilities......
one more observation- I hear tons beginners today with great tone but no presence. Do you think the blues greats started out reserved, mellow, contolled? Heck no, they were wildmen. They were as wild as any rock or punk band just with a different beat. that is how they found their sound. You got to push it out beyond your control. that is a natural thing of youth. You are crazy with hormones and adrenelin. Then as you age you hone it. Over the years they mellowed down to what most youngsters today see them on videos. In thier heyday most weren't being filmed because no one cared enough to do so. To start out backwards will leave you with tone and chops and put people to sleep in a real blues club. Read some of the stories of the bluesguys in their youth. Todays young players often remind me of robots- all perfect with nothing coming. I saw and was onstage with many of the blues greats in their later years and they had more energy going than many of the younger players today. The blues is about emotion. Forget all this gear talk beginners and go make crazy noise! This music isn't meant for a bow your head in quiet mediation center. It is meant to grab people in their gut. Strut your stuff like nobody can touch you. This isn't bragging. Do you when think Michael Jordon shot a basket he thought it would ever miss? This is letting all you got out and you are tapping into the real blues scene. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Its strange how threads morph and take on a life of their own !
This thread started about tone and has become one about gear.
All that an amplifier will do is amplify what you put in.
Shite in, louder shite out.
I am a gear head because I have an evolving sound in my head that I want to hear coming out of an amp or PA. That sound has changed as I have got better and/or older. My musical tastes have changed just as much.
A good/great player will still sound great through a bad set-up. As long as it is loud enough to be heard.
An inexperienced/poor/intermediate player will sound exactly at the level they are regardless of the gear.
There is more to being a great musician than tone. Phrasing,licks,musicality etc,etc,etc.
For me the foundation to being a great player is tone. Then we move on to the rest.
Gear can help you shape your sound. BUT, it won't make your sound.
/Todays young players often remind me of robots. I saw and was onstage with many of the blues greats in their later years and they had more energy going than many of the younger players today. The blues is about emotion. Forget all this gear talk beginners and go make crazy noise! This music isn't meant for a bow your head in quiet mediation center. It is meant to grab people in their gut./
I hope these thoughts revisit you when you're spontobeating (if they haven't already?)
captainbliss: This thread has me inspired to go out in my studio and record. I was lacking it today and this jumped me right to it. Yes these thoughts are always with me. I am now in my mid 50's and the wildness of my teens, 20's, 30's, has mellowed, as it naturally should. Still when I perform live I am concerned about getting my sound out. I don't care a hoot about any rules. they make you think, restrict creativity, and make for a boring performance. If I want to blast a harp I blast it, if a chord on the guitar is wrong but feels right then it is right. What others think is not my concern, just getting it out of me is my reason for playing. Playing the old chitlin circuit clubs one had to grab the audience. I learned that letting it all hang out got you there. I was always the least talented player onstage and still am most times. It is about the energy. All those fancy notes, gear, are nice additions but are meaningless without a pure outpouring. Most intermediate players today are technically better than most of the blues great but do millions listen to them over those guys?
The late owner of the black cat lounge in austin texas was a real character. One night willie nelson was listening to us play. He asked paul if he could sit in and wanted to ask me. Paul the owner said he didn't like his voice and said no. I was shocked. I would have lvoed that jam. Paul never lied. He told his truth. Many hated him for that and he never got much press because he called the press out for being too conservative- always promoting the already famous and ignoring the talented unknowns. He often told me I was the worst musician to play his club but I played like an old black man (he used another word). He said notes, riffs, techniques, were a dime a dozen, but letting ones soul hang out unfiltered was real music. The best musicians in austin and touring through town would ask to play his club even though it only held 80 people. Neil young made his club kind of famous wearing a black cat t shirt at farm aid. For a few years as we played the big tour busses would park out front and come in and buy them. Many of those guys sat in with us including Badfinger! If I was to teach anyone harp the first thing I would say is "you have to be willing to bare your soul no matter what level of skill you are at. That means no holds bar. I know that may be a big order but if you are willing I will be there cheering you on all day long. Otherwise I have no interest in teaching or listening to you play. I am not meaning to be cruel. It is just the best music is done this way and that is what turns me on. By best I don't mean technically great. That is easy to master." My frankness my offend some, but I don't lie to sell a record:-) Walter
I am off to record some-thanks all for the inspiration! ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I thought I had good tone - then I did a jam with another visiting harp player. - He had to play through a small fender solid state piece of crap amp with a generic mic - and I had my tube rig. When that sucker got a better tone than me I said to myself, I said - "damn!"
He was playing 3d P while I was in second and lip pursing. - This is far from the whole explanation, but the players with the most killer tone - like Gruenling mostly play in third and are TB's. TB'ing does put your mouth cavity in to a different shape more open shape - and the minor chords you get in 3'd don't hurt the effect either. Lower key harps are 'fatter' sounding too.
I do play from the diaphram (most of the time I think anyway) - and my vibrato is mostly diaphram driven. To my ear is its prefferable, coming from a litterally deeper and more whole body place - there is just more behind it. I am more conciouse of my mouth shape now, even while lip pursing (which is what I still do mostly).
Yes gear makes a difference, of course, - but as has been pointed out, it's still amplifying the sound you and your harp are making.
captiain B's formula does sum it up - even if it's short on the details
What a great discussion. I apologize for being late to the party. I was paying for Hill Country, and realized I've been pretty absent from harmonica forums.
My take on the plastic surgery quip boiled down to the statement: "you're not fooling anyone with those things".
I'm a firm believer that a player's personal tone is the most important part of the equation. As an interested, fairly active gear-head, I won't discount the value of quality equipment. However, my personal philosophy is that I will take any apropriate stage, at any time, regardless of gear.
The same way I'm pretty sure that Kobe will take me to the hole in flip flops, his $200 shoes probably make NBA games easier. I think gear can't really hurt (except when it makes horrible dissonance really loud). It's just that I've seen too many throw money at the problem instead of effort.
Oftentimes, the same guys who play with mediocre tone, are the first to defend the value of gear. I think this is what sets up the sort of heated discussion earlier in this post.
It's difficult for the "personal tone" guys to entertain the "gear makes everything better" guys, because we've seen too many guys with thousands of dollars worth of bad tone. Fair or not, the data is in favor of the generalization.
You have to start somewhere. . .true. Everyone plays publicly with poor tone early on. Amps can definitely unlock nuance, even for folks early in their journey. I think it's the guys who don't ever get any better, despite gear, who fuel the stereotype.
Going back to the original post, since I've been doing the youtube thing, I've been trying to learn how to better help others develop tone. Saying, "your tone sucks" while often accurate, doesn't help anyone (laughs at his own joke. . .).
So far, I've concluded that many intermediate players either can't tell the difference, or just don't care to do anything about tone. I think simple teacher feedback helps the former. As for the latter, I got nothin'.
The second element that I believe affects tone, is clarity and control. I'm all for playing fast, or raw and nasty, but when one cannot articulate single notes, or hit bends, the resulting "slop" registers, to me, as a major "bad tone" contributor.
For this, I think fundamentals are key. Long tones, bending practice, mic practice. . . they all help.
I need to stop, because I'm probably getting boring. Awesome debate/discussion, guys (even if it's the same discussion year in and year out. . . (laughs again. . .)
In catching up on this thread, I realized my post might have been confusing. The idea I was trying to share is that a great acoustic tone can be covered up by using gear incorrectly. There is good acoustic tone and good amped tone.
You probably can't have good amped tone if your acoustic tone is not good. However, just because you have good acoustic tone, that doesn't mean you will have good amped tone.
When I say amped, I mean when using any amplification...that includes playing into a vocal mic to record uncupped harp, etc.
I've heard great players try to play "acoustically" into a mic live and sound like crap - very piercing. It is because of the eq and not the player. I've also heard heavily reverbed "acoustic" harp...which confuses me. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 3/23/11
