Why is it that some harp players draw such comparisons when to do so is absurd. Personally I think it shows a feeling of being inadequate. The statement in the article that 'he just plays a generally unpopular instrument' is ridiculous when the humble harmonica is the worlds number one selling musical instrument.
Dylan is probably the single most influential artist in the past 100 years to have made the harmonica popular. Dylan to the contrary does not give the instrument a bad rap. His playing is basic and so is his singing voice but the magic is in the poetry that flows from his music.
Dylans influence and impact on popular music is huge ie up there with The Beatles & Elvis. This forum excluded, the majority of people, especially non blues harmonica players would never have heard of Carlos del Junco. This is not a put down on Carlos ie to the contrary he is a superb player, a master at his art, but with a limited audience.
There is IMHO nothing to be gained in making such comparisons.
If being a better harmonica player than Bob Dylan means you are GOOD.... I know of about 3 harmonica playing Hobos who just might be the next Little Walter. ---------- ---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
I never begrudge Dylan because he has never ( to my knowledge ) claimed to be a "harmonica player" that sings and writes songs. his harmonica playing is adjunct to what he does, but it is not the most important part. Some of the squealing really is integral to the songs he made popular. He DID make the harmonica more acceptable as a mainstream instrument. I do laugh when I see Hohner selling signature harps with his name on the covers. Even worse is the caterwauling that Steve Tyler does . Oh, my poor ears ! ...Even if some of the songs are good.
I could listen to whole day of Dylan, with plenty of harmonica...but want to commit suicide listening to Popper doing his hi-end noodling. people that mention BT in conjunction with Blues Harp, I immediately sever the conversation.
I think it is very disrespectful or Carlos to make those statements of Dylan and Young in the article. He is obviously very jealous. Bob Dylan has 20 Gold albums, 12 Platinum, 3 double Platinum, and 3 that went 5x Plaitinum (including compilations and Live). Every harmonica player in the world should be thanking the following players. John Lennon Neil Young Mickey Raphael (Willies guy) John Popper Scott Thurston (Tom Pettys guy)
It is because of these guys that most American kids ever pick up the instrument. Non of these guys are the best, but they all make the instrument enjoyable to mainstream American. Walk down the street and ask the average Joe if they know who these guys are, most will. Walk down the stree and ask if they know Carlos, probably not.
Is Carlos better than most of them, yes he is. But without these modern pioneers, harmonica would only been known to a much smaller blues audience. Turn on you top three radio stations and you will hear these guys. You wont hear Jason Ricci or Adam Gussow. It is a shame, but it is the way it is. Hopefully there will be some up and coming players that are top notch players to become mainstream. I think Brand Bailey has that ability. He is a great player and has that mainstream vibe and very likeable.
I grew up listening to the guys I listed above and it peaked my interest and made me want to play. When I started to dig deeper into it I made it my own resposability to find out about others. I never knew of Snooky Pryor, Little Walter, etc.. I didnt grow up in a Blues culture or area. These guys opened the door for me to find out about them.
Carlos is a great player but he is blind to the fact that nobody in mainstream America, or Canada, would give a crap about harmonica if it wasnt for these guys.
I dont mean to exclude the midwest down to New Orleans are that is a very big Blues area. But the mass populations are East coast, West coast, and we are not lucky enough to have the Blues exposure that those areas do.
@rt123: It was the sound of Bob Dylan's harp on THE FREEWHEELIN' BOB DYLAN that first got me interested in the instrument, although I didn't actually buy one until I heard Magic Dick in "Whammer Jammer."
But I don't agree with the logic underpinning your post. Of course the popularizers serve a function, but their function doesn't, to my mind, give them precedence over truly talented players. You're quite right: most American kids probably pick up a harmonica because of one of the five players you mention--I'm OK with stipulating that, for the sake of argument--but most of those kids, as you call them, end up learning no more than a few trash-harp licks and then quitting, or stagnating. The young players who end up actually achieving something on the harmonica go on a much longer pilgrimage that leads them, I suspect, to study at least some of the players mentioned on the Top 10 and Second 10 and Honorable Mention lists on another page of this website. And Carlos--for those players--certainly offers one model of achieved excellence. Neither John Lennon or Bob Dylan, considered purely has harmonica players, offers our young player a model of achieved excellence.
Actually, as your post continues, you offer yourself as an example of somebody who went on such a pilgrimmage. So perhaps we don't see things so differently after all. But perhaps Magic Dick should be on your list, too. And Taylor Hicks.
I'm happy to say that a young player who happens to be listening to Bluesville satellite radio these days will be hearing Adam Gussow quite a lot.
@Gene: As a friend of Carlos's, I suspect he said what he said about Dylan and Neil Yong being terrible harmonica players because he's trying to rescue the harmonica from its reputation in the public mind as not-really-a-serious-instrument: a reputation that it's gotten in large part precisely because the people who dominate the mass public perception of the instrument are players like Dylan and Young, "players" who mostly use the harp as seasoning. It's everybody favorite second instrument, if you will. That's not true for ANY other instrument. The world of sax playing isn't dominated by guys who mostly sing and/or play another instrument. Nor is the world of fiddle playing. So the mass public knows what good sax playing and good fiddle playing sounds like. But that's not true when it comes to harmonica. Carlos is simply confronting that fact head-on.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 5:08 AM
So Adam, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? LOL. I think we are in agreement.
I think we are both saying Dylan and others are a starting point but not an ending point. And yes, now I am hooked on Bluesville as well. That is one point I didn;t mention, The Internet, I has made the exposure to music SO much easier and fun for everyone.
I was just shocked and actually kind of pissed to hear someone bash another player for no reason at all. I lost a lot of respect for Carlos. He should let his playing speak for itself. There was no need for that in my opinion.
Edit to add that you are correct about Magic Dick and Taylor Hicks. I had to stop the list somewhere or I could go all day lng. I cant believe I forgot Mick Jagger. When I was young and heard Midnight Rambler for the first time I thought it was the coolest thing ever (and I still do)!
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 5:22 AM
And it's soooooo un-Canadian, hey. Canadians are polite people who don't talk trash.
Of course, blues guys are notable for talking trash. If you heard Sonny Boy Williamson (the latter) talking about his competition, you'd lose all respect for him, too. Same with Junior Wells. You might not actually have any blues players left to respect.
Or you might decide that your own standards of polite behavior weren't really an adequate measuring stick for the big, bold, and beautiful world of the blues harmonica.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 5:26 AM
Years back,I can remember a few folks asking me if I could play any Bob Dylan or Neil Young on my harmonica and I would say,come on thats very basic chord harp stuff that could be taught in most cases in a very short time until;I borrowed a harp neck holder,picked up my acoustic and tryed playing both at the same time and then realized Like damn this is hard,so I then had a re-newed respect for they,re harp playing.Granted they,re no where in the same league as J.Hammond,Paul Osher or Walter Tore for that matter but I,m sure if they wanted to and put the time in that they could be far better harpers.I would be curious to hear them play harp without they,re guitars.As far as Carlos,maybe he should take the test and try doing both before he makes his statements.
Maybe my "nice" standards are too high for Blues, LOL. But sports is full of people talking Sh&t all the time so let me give you this comparison.
Steve Grogan doesn't have to pay for a drink in New England. He is loved by all around here. We know Tom Brady is a much better quarterback and he is loved by all around here too. If Tom brady ever said Steve Grogan was "terrible" there would be a lot of pissed off people here. Brady doesn't need to say that. We all know he is better than Grogan. He has proven it and we love and respect them both. In my opinion Carlos should have said he is "different than Dylan" or something to that affect without coming across as arrogant and rude. Maybe my standards are too polite as you say, but I think polite can be Big, Bold, and Beautiful too. I didn't grow up in the Blues culture like I said, so maybe his comments are acceptable to those who know like you and other blues traditionalist. I am always trying to learn...
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 9:06 AM
"Every harmonica player in the world should be thanking the following players. John Lennon Neil Young Mickey Raphael (Willies guy) John Popper Scott Thurston (Tom Pettys guy)"
Amen to that! and none of those are players would you associate with a Walterish blues influenced style.
I actually enjoy the bare bones 1st/4th approach of Dylan & Young (and Guthrie if you want to trace it back) It is a very different musical context. Comparing it to Del Junco, Ricci, Levy etc... is like critiscising the Naive art movement for being too simplistic - it's kind of missing the point!
/Or you might decide that your own standards of polite behavior weren't really an adequate measuring stick for the big, bold, and beautiful world of the blues harmonica./
So, I have to talk trash for my, er, stick to measure adequately, Prof?
*Giggles*
Nah, I reckon generosity, consideration and kindness makes our blues harmonica world a whole lot bigger, bolder and much more beautiful.
when I think about little walter or sb1 and 2 from the past or kim wilson or rod piazza in the present I am thinking about great harp players dylan and young play harp on a rack with their guitar and vocals and are proficient at all 3 but just dont think they are great harp players have to agree with adam 100%
I really doubt that bob could give a fiddler`s fart about all this he really does not have anything to prove about his ability as a musician or neil young either but dont think of them as harp players but great musicians in their own right I love bobs tribute to blind willie mctell who is my favorite bluesman from the distant past
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 7:05 AM
I often am asked to play a Dylanesque solo in session work. I find it one of the most difficult styles to play well. I think this link will send you to Johann Wagner's album Disappear. It recently went to around #10 on the folk music charts. I play on around 6 cuts, most in the Dylan style. He actually asked for Bruce Springsteen. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/jwagner2 Michael Rubin
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 7:07 AM
What surprised me was the Head line it's self. My comment was not against Bob Dylan, but against the author of the story. Comparing these two artist is like comparing Hot Dogs to Ice Cream and being surprised that their so different. Both are food, but thats where the comparison stops. In no way was I trying to express a disrespect towards Dylan. If I came off that way, I didn't mean to.
@kudzrunner "American kids probably pick up a harmonica because of one of the five players you mention--I'm OK with stipulating that, for the sake of argument--but most of those kids, as you call them, end up learning no more than a few trash-harp licks and then quitting, or stagnating".
Would not the same apply to guitarists? Or to almost any instrument? I know lots of people who learnt piano for a year and they are terrible.
@LJS "could listen to whole day of Dylan, with plenty of harmonica...but want to commit suicide listening to Popper doing his hi-end noodling."
I agree and in fact I would go even further & say that I could not listen to any harmonica player for hours on end. I'm not suicidal about it though.
I go back to what I said in my previous post ie 'Why is it that some harp players draw such comparisons when to do so is absurd. Personally I think it shows a feeling of being inadequate.There is IMHO nothing to be gained in making such comparisons.'
The scene is getting better with great all round players spreading the message with their music & not being stuck in one groove. Players like Brenden Power & sensational newcomer Alex Paclin. But if it's only one groove you like be happy and be content with it.
Adam...that's so funny what you mentioned about SB II and Junior. I never had the chance to see Rice Miller, but that's absolutely true about JW. There were times I think he actually thought he had invented the harmonica ! If anyone ever breathed Little Walter around him, you were sure to get an earful.
I just think there's room for everybody. Different styles / genres.
@RT123 : Mick Jagger is indeed a solid harp player.
I bought a harp after hearing U2's Running To Stand Still on Rattle and Hum. I thought the other harp player on that album sucked btw. (hehe...)
Dylan and Young can move people and perhaps we all get all uppity over technique and skills, but harp is a funny thing and it doesn't need to be played 'right' to meet the song and emotion it's conveying.
On the other hand: RT123 and Little joe, are you mad???? Jagger???? I hate that thin toned 'lean on the 5 draw' crap he does. Drives me bloody mad!
However, I loved what he did on Love Is Strong on Voodoo Lounge.
I guess if liking midnight rambler makes me "mad" then yes I am. I loved that soung since I first heard it play. No it's not the best harp, but I still think it sound cool. It's bluesy, rock and rock, and it kicks ass. I am a brother that loves sexy, dirty, fun, kick ass bluesy rock. In my opinion that is the stones all the way!
The last time that I saw Carlos Del Junco was at one of Mark Hummel's harp blowouts in Oakland. There was no doubt he is a talented harp player. Most of the harp players in the audience loved his playing.
My wife (who is not a harp player) found his performance to be boring. She wasn't being entertained by him. She found Mark Hummel, Rod Piazza, Billy Branch and Sugar Blue to be far more entertaining.
People are different. Their tastes are different. They are looking for different things from a musical performance.
I stuck around for the second show. After his performance, Carlos Del Junco was standing in the back of the room watching Billy Branch's and Sugar Blue's performances. He didn't appear to be a guy who was dismissive of another player's talent. He appeared to be watching and listening.
We can all learn something from other players. It may be something you wish to emulate or it might be something to avoid, but we can all learn something.
Musical performances are not sporting events.
The best sentence in the article was an excellent question,
"Do I really want to spend three hours listening to this?"
That is exactly my point. I wouldn't call Jagger even a good harp player. IMHO, he's awful. But you are right. Midnight Rambler is awesome.
I called out the 'other harp player' on U2's Ratle and Hum. The other harp player on that album is Adam Gussow. I think even he'll agree that his playing on Freedom For My People isn't his moment of great technical facility, but it is better technically that anything Bono played on that album. That said, it didn't 'move' me like Running To Stand Still did.
What I was trying to say that it isn't about ability standing on it's own. It's about context, communication, empathy with the listener. That's when it becomes different to just blowing and sucking, or playing a bunch of scales. It becomes music.
That's when Bob Dyan can be better than Carlos Del Junco, or even better than Jason Ricci or Howard Levy.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 5:28 PM
I am updating my list again of the guys that first got me hooked. Like I said before this list is of the guys that opened my eyes to the harmonica. Then I began to research and learn of the early blues greats.
John Lennon Neil Young Mickey Raphael (Willies guy) John Popper Scott Thurston (Tom Pettys guy) Magic Dick Mick Jagger Robert Plant Robby Krieger (The Doors) Chris Robinson (The Black Crowes)
Totally agree with yer position on the rock and roll harp players, particularly the "this was my door into the harp and then explored the blues greats". The same is true for me.
One thing about yer list though, re: The Doors, are you sure it was Keieger? At least as far as the studio version of Roadhouse Blues, that was John Sebastian, sitting in.
Keep on rocking on about Jagger et al though.....
love his harp on Mignight Rambler...and The Spider and The Fly for that matter.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 7:20 AM
@Honkin you are probably right. I was just thinking on my ride to work of some others the add to the list and thought it was Krieger, it could have been Sebastian. I will take your word for it.
Anyone have any others from the classic rock era to add?
So if your not the best around you shouldn't play in public? I don't think so! I don't recall Dylan, Jagger or any of the others say they were the best or even that they were good. They played what they felt which is what we are told to do from the moment we start playing music instead of learning tunes. They played and said listen to my message/song. Never heard them say,"Look what I can do!"
It's interesting to me that you rarely hear the same complaint about the guitar playing of singer-songwriters. Is it because rudimentary guitar playing doesn't sound as bad as rudimentary harmonica playing? (That's not my position... I am just asking.)
No one ever says, "I like Alanis Morrisette's songs, but her guitar playing is atrocious."
while i have no doubt WHAT SO EVER that carlos del junco is a much better harp player than dylan....i wonder if there are any on this forum that heard dylan play blues on the harp back in the very early sixties (maybe late 50's)? i have tried to find cuts with him as a sideman but have never been able to.
harvey brooks once told me that while dylan was no butterfield...he wasn't bad either. he ought to know.
paul jones front man for manfred mann got me hooked.
while i was never a dylan fan....i did think that was cool. the audio seems way to good for such an early live setting
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 10:24 AM
It's funny, I've been a MBH forum member long enough now to see the maligning of Dylan's harp skills surface on here a number of times. Enough so, that this time, I just laughed and thought, well..we haven't had a good Dylan lambasting in a while...I guess we were due.
As I am a huge fan of Bobby Zimmerman's, I used to try and defend him at length...now, I just marvel at the cyclicality of it all (plus, RT123 and Aussie did a pretty good job at that defense).
Somebody picks up a harp, learns to play a little (or a lot) and inevitably get's to thinkin' ...."hey I'm better than Dylan, I think i'll let the world know"
High comedy.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 11:58 AM
Yes, I have two of the early albums where Dylan is working as a sideman. The two albums to dig out are "Midnight Special" by Harry Belafonte 1962 and the self-titled '61 album by Carolyn Hester (confusingly there are 2 self titled albums!)
It is still very distinctively Dylanesque, although I do think he handles himself a little better off the rack.
My favourite Dylan harmonica piece is "Every Grain of Sand" from a much later album "Shot of Love".
The whole point is that WE are all HARMONICA players.
Bob Dylan's HARMONICA playing is Laughable.
Most of the people I meet while talking about -BLUES HARMONICA PLAYERS- mention either Bob Dylan, John Popper or Taylor hicks........
........ THAT is laughable...... But NOT if you take this instrument seriously....
If you take it seriously... It's a Damn shame. I die inside everytime I hear, "Can you play like Bob Dylan"?
At least when I talk about -Blues Guitar Players- people mention, Muddy waters, bb king, Robert Johnson, buddy guy.
They don't usually say, coldplay guitarist, John Mayer, Kenny Wayne shepard......... -------------- I am glad someone is pushing the Obvious Confusion into the right direction. Maybe soon I won't have to hear Bob Dylan's name EVERYWHERE I go.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 2:41 PM
Once Carlos has 20 Gold albums, 12 Platinum, 3 double Platinum, and 3 that went 5x Plaitinum he can call Dylan terrible. Until then he should show some class. It's not about who is better, it's about him coming across as a jerk. He probably started playing because of Dylan.
I just noticed Carlos recently played at yoshis in Oakland ca. Wow that place seats 550. Oh, wait, Dylan is opening his 2011 tou on April 3 at the Taipei arena. Well it's only about 15000 more people. LOL. You better keep practicing Dylan, Carlos says your a terrible harp player and once he sells 70 million more albums he will prove how much better he is.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2011 4:23 PM
Listening to "Wichita" right now - one of the tracks with Big Joe Williams.
Much better than anything else I've heard him play. Fits the musical style well. Still focussing more on the rhythmic aspects more than the melody. You can hear him shaping the tone with his hands. If I hadn't known I really wouldn't have said this was Dylan.
Bob Dylan is only one of many of the greatest harp players in the universe! And there is only one Bob Dylan. ---------- Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
