praefect
52 posts
Mar 18, 2011
6:48 AM
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Hi,
epiphone valve junior v3. stock.
I find myself having to crank the volume too high for my needs (practice) just to get that tone and the good old green bullet makes feedback a problem...
I'm not too knowledgeable with this stuff... But I think I need to lower the volume (amp?, mic?) but still have the preamp do its job so I can get that distortion at a reasonable volume while minimizing feedback.
options:
1. pentode/triode mod
2. master volume mod
3. lone wolf tone+ pedal
4. ???
I'm really lost. The pedal sounds simple but I have no idea if it will achieve what I want.. I should have bought an amp with a pentode/triode switch I guess..
thanks to all of you for all the great info available here
praefect
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5F6H
560 posts
Mar 18, 2011
7:37 AM
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I don't recommend the triode/pentode mod, I don't recommend a master vol mod.
A pedal might well help you get more distortion at low volume but anything that bumps up the signal to the preamp will ultimately make the amp louder.
My first port of call would be a "resistive attenuator" (google this term), this can be added to your amp easily, using 2x10W (or better) resistors. I'd start at 6dB (75% drop) attenuation minimum, maybe 9dB (87.5% drop) tops? If you are practically minded, the assembly could be incorporated into it's own enclosure & switched in/out as desired, would always be handy for amps of similar wattage & same speaker impedance.
Big amps need more substantial attenuators because of the wattage that they need to dissipate.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 7:38 AM
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praefect
53 posts
Mar 18, 2011
7:41 AM
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Thanks for the reply 5F6H!
I will definitely look into the resistive attenuator, for the pedal, my guess is that the volume control of the pedal would be like a volume pot on the mic (which my green bullet doesn't have), so the mic would input less signal into the preamp..
Do you know if I could get the same tone (or pretty close) by dialing down the volume on a mic and turning up the volume (gain) on the amp? or does lowering the volume on a mic will diminish greatly the distortion?
thank you all
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MJ
269 posts
Mar 18, 2011
7:53 AM
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If you were to put a volume control on your mic, you could turn up the amp and control the volume from your mic. I always like a volume control on my mics. You could also use a volume pedal.
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praefect
54 posts
Mar 18, 2011
8:01 AM
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MJ,
So you confirm that with a volume on the mic, I can crank up the amp, get the distortion I want but at a reasonable volume?
as simple as that?
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timeistight
29 posts
Mar 18, 2011
8:12 AM
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People always say that, but it never made any sense to me. Whether a potentiometer is on the mic or on the front of the amp it's still reducing the signal level going to the power tubes and speakers and that's where the good distortion happens.
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MJ
270 posts
Mar 18, 2011
9:09 AM
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praefect, That is my humble opinion .
Timeisight, My take is that with a volume control on the mic, you actually are using 2 potentiometers. One on the amp to control the preamp and the second on the mic to control the input. Try it and see.
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hvyj
1317 posts
Mar 18, 2011
9:37 AM
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I agree with MJ. Personally, i don't use bullet mics. I use a 545 Ultimate with has an integral volume control. I find that I don't get the desired depth of tone from my Super Reverb Reissue or my Princeton Reverb Reissue unless I set the amp volume at 7 or above which is LOUD, especially for the Super. But that's where the "sweet spot" is for these tube amps. They really come alive at these higher volume settings.
So, I plug into the lower gain input of the amp, set the amp volume at 7 (or 8) and then I back off the volume on the mic using the volume control on the mic to attenuate how hot the input signal is, which controls feed back and sets a reasonable volume level for performance. Very reliable method.
BUT, on some mics with a volume control, rolling of volume degrades the tonal characteristics of the mic. This is NOT the case with any of Greg Heumann's Ultimate mics, but i don't know how a bullet mic would respond since i don't use bullets. But in general, what MJ is suggesting works great.
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Tuckster
825 posts
Mar 18, 2011
10:03 AM
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I really like having a volume control on my mic. It lets me have some control on how hard I drive the preamp. It really helps on something hot like a GB. I think for harp,we want to drive the power tubes hard and not the preamp? As hvyj said,there's that "sweet spot" where the amp really sings.
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rharley5652
426 posts
Mar 18, 2011
10:54 AM
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@praefect,.
I think if you use Jims set up you'll be in the ballpark of good Tone /volume,. w/the epiphone valve junior,. at the end of the video he shows his set up><
Ya can also talk with him about the epiphone valve junior at www.harperclub.com
Shure 515 Revolution from True Chromatic on Vimeo.
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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toddlgreene
2749 posts
Mar 18, 2011
10:58 AM
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Yup, volume knob is the way to go. Set the amp as loud as you need to get tone, right before feedback, then creep up the mic's volume as need be.
Also, if you still have the stock tubes, try the JJ 12AX7 or even a 5751-not as bright as that stock tube. I'd change that power tube as well. Makes one hell of a difference. Those stock tubes are crap.
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Todd
Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 11:01 AM
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rharley5652
427 posts
Mar 18, 2011
11:28 AM
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@ toddlgreene,.
a while back Ant (a member here) had problems with his EVJ ,.Jim wrote me an asked if I'd forward this to him :
Can you please send this to ant138 via email?
An EQ pedal will take a thin sound with all the useless junk in the
high frequency and make it tight and powerful.
And nonononononono!! Don't change the tubes!!!! I have already tried
that and it sucks. Your epi is now equipped with the best combination
of tubes. Trust me, other tubes sound like absolute shit there.
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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toddlgreene
2750 posts
Mar 18, 2011
11:44 AM
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Gotta disagree with you, Rharley-No, no, no they don't sound like shit. I've got that amp, albeit modded. Changing those tubes gave it much more warmth and mellowed the harshness of the breakup that was evident with the stock EH/Sovteks. Even keeping the same value but better-quality tubes will be a big improvement. After trying a few, I went with RCA Grey Plate 6QB5 power tube and a JJ 12AX7. Sounds miles better than the stock tubes.
Now, if whatever tubes you replaced them with weren't good quality ones, I could see there being little to no improvement.
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Todd
Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 11:57 AM
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MJ
271 posts
Mar 18, 2011
11:49 AM
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I agree with Todd. I use an RCA 6BQ5 and a Sylvania 5751 in mine and it rocks. I think the Sovteks are a bit harsh.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 11:51 AM
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hvyj
1318 posts
Mar 18, 2011
12:21 PM
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FWIW, I used to use an equalizer before i started using a mic with a VC. Not saying using an EQ is a bad idea, but I no longer need one, and the less gear you use, the fewer problems you have.
I think JJ tubes have nice warm sound for harp. I did tube swaps in my Super. The tube configuration in my Princeton is the same as it was stock. BUT I've put JJs in both amps in place of the stock tubes which I thought sounded somewhat harsh--to my ear, the JJs sound fatter and warmer. But YMMV.
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Joe_L
1131 posts
Mar 18, 2011
12:22 PM
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Personally, I got suckered into buying a Harp Tone+ pedal after watching htownfess' youtube videos with a Valve Jr half stack, Harp Tone+ pedal and a Superlux mic. He gets some serious tone out of it.
(It should be noted that htownfess has killer tone through damn near anything he chooses to play through.)
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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MJ
272 posts
Mar 18, 2011
12:44 PM
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@Joe_ L No need to feel suckered, why not return the pedal? Randy is very good about returns within a reasonable time. I got a delay from him last year and returned it with no problem, it just didn't fit my needs or expectations. I went with a Carbon Copy because it had a bit longer delay which I was looking for.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 12:45 PM
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toddlgreene
2751 posts
Mar 18, 2011
12:48 PM
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i think JoeL is being sarcastic...He has another post praising the pedal, with a video.
And yes, Randy is a good man.
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Todd
Eudora and Deep Soul
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MJ
273 posts
Mar 18, 2011
1:07 PM
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Cool.
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5F6H
561 posts
Mar 18, 2011
1:15 PM
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I'm with Timeistight (a Booker T reference?).
A volume pot on the mic reduces the signal voltage from the mic, "turning down" everything after it, with less signal voltage hitting the power tube & speaker, you are getting LESS drive & output. You can't get the amp to break up at lower dB by turning down your mic. You can change the character, to something you prefer, but if you want to play quieter without a vol control on your mic, you can simply turn down the amp's volume control, with that mic.
Fitting a 12AY or 12AU7 preamp tube may actually increase headroom, but the softening of the dynamics & high end may make the tone easier to manage at lower volumes, less "bitey".
If you want to get a distorted tone at lower volume you could try JJ's EL844 low headroom power tube...but having done a lot of experimentation with living room/practice amps, you really want under 1W...the attenuator will do this cheaply & efficiently...cheaper than a pedal, or a mic with a volume control. You could always use all 3.
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2011 4:39 AM
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Joe_L
1132 posts
Mar 18, 2011
2:09 PM
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MJ - I hope my post didn't sound like I don't dig the Harp Tone+ pedal. I'm very happy with it. It does a lot of good things and it does them very well.
htownfess pulled together a really nice sounding rig that would cost about than $500 new. Part of that rig was the Harp Tone+. It sounded great. It motivated me to buy one of the pedals. It allowed me to use commonly available microphones with any amp and deliver pleasing tone that sounded good to my ears.
It's a good product. I really like it. I don't use it a great deal, but it's a good addition to my toolkit. I also own the Lone Wolf Harp Delay pedal. I like Randy's products.
Here's the thread where I wrote about the pedal with a reference to some video of the pedal in use.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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MJ
274 posts
Mar 18, 2011
3:12 PM
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Joe_L Todd set me straight on that. I also read your other post. I just misread your tongue in cheek comment.
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Greg Heumann
1071 posts
Mar 18, 2011
6:54 PM
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re: "A volume pot on the mic reduces the signal voltage from the mic, "turning down" everything after it, with less signal voltage hitting the power tube & speaker, you are getting LESS drive & output. You can't get the amp to break up at lower dB by turning down your mic...."
I have to disagree. If you turn a mic down and turn the amp up so that you're at the same volume as before, then you are indeed changing the way the preamp tube is working. An amp's volume control is not (in the amps I know, anyway) in series with the input signal. On a Kalamazoo, turning the mic down and turning the amp up absolutely positively creates a different, more compressed sound. The edge or "attack" of notes has more distortion this way. I can hear it clearly on a headshake.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 7:08 PM
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5F6H
563 posts
Mar 19, 2011
1:20 AM
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Greg wrote:"An amp's volume control is not (in the amps I know, anyway) in series with the input signal." The amp's volume control is in series with the signal, in every amp I have ever seen, or heard of, if that amp is used with the volume control at anyhing less than full CW rotation. A volume pot is normally wired as a voltage divider, the section below the wiper presents resistance to ground & load for the signal. But, the portion above the wiper presents series resistance to the audio signal coming from the input...typically several hundred thousand ohms.
If you turn the mic down, you reduce signal into the amp, the preamp tube distorts less, it also amplifies less (a tube's voltage gain changes with the voltage that it runs at and according to how big a signal it is hit with. Yes you can turn up the amp's volume to restore overall volume, yes it will sound "different"...the input signal has more series resistance & less of a grid load to the next stage, softening the sound a little (what you are likely perceiving as "compression", an attenuation of high end?), but typically headroom is increased if anything. It does not change the power rating of the amp, or significantly affect volume overall,..it's swings & roundabouts...you need to introduce something to actually reduce voltage hitting the speaker to reduce dB, like an attenuator.
You are just likely to reduce useable volume (dB) by running a mic with massive output that batters the hell out of the first tube, requiring lower volume & more attenuation at the volume pot on the amp (as you get later in the circuit series resistance, like at the amp's volume rather than the mic's, has more of an effect on tone)...however, this may increase highs/mids in the sound, which may (or may not be) be perceived as "louder" at comparable dB. But really, either way, (mic up/amp down, mic down amp up) is only going to nominally affect output wattage/dB. As I said before, you might hear something you like in one way over the other, if that does the trick for you then fine. If the amp is significantly too loud for home/practice use, balancing volumes alone is unlikely to make a big difference. 5W, often even a couple of W, is loud if you live in an apartment, or for others in neighbouring rooms.
Think about an amp with a master volume, when you want headroom, you turn down the gain (preamp stage) & turn up the master (later stage, like turning down the mic & up on the amp vol), when you want drive you turn down the master & turn up the signal earlier in the amp.
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2011 6:29 AM
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Jehosaphat
17 posts
Mar 19, 2011
1:49 AM
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have to wonder here...why are we all paying top dollar for'hot' c/m,c/r etc when you guys who are in the business, so to speak are saying that we might as well buy any old mic and use the amp to control rhe final sound because the mic signal needs attenuating?
Call me old school but isn't the Hot output the reason we bought the C/ms in the first place?
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5F6H
564 posts
Mar 19, 2011
4:34 AM
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My feeling is that a hot output mic will drive the input stage harder (which has knock on effect farther down the line, as each stage is amplifying a more distorted sound), which can be great for getting a big stage amp, or an amp that is slow to break up to deliver a driven tone. With a very hot mic, you simply may not ever get a clean-ish tone from an amp that is quick to distort.
Conversely, a moderate output mic may make it harder to overdrive a stage amp, but may give you more variety of tone with a small, or very distorted, or gainy amp. E.g. a ceramic element has less output than an equivalent crystal design, in a low gain amp this might sound a little flat/clean/lifeless, but plug into a Pro Jr or a Blues Deville and you may find the ceramic more useful?
It's courses for horses - I've already done "swings & roundabouts once today ;-) - a question of balancing amp & mic. You should always judge a mic primarily by its tone, output is often a secondary requirement, assuming that output is "adequate".
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2011 4:41 AM
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hvyj
1320 posts
Mar 19, 2011
6:04 AM
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Purely as a practical matter, all other things being equal, the "hotter" the output of the mic, the greater the potential for feedback.
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Greg Heumann
1073 posts
Mar 19, 2011
10:06 AM
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@HVJY - we are in violent agreement.
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/Greg
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LIP RIPPER
403 posts
Mar 19, 2011
11:06 AM
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To make a scientific experiment you change a variable.
Harp science 101.
515 rev or 545 ult, god my head hurts. Pain is good.
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tmf714
545 posts
Mar 19, 2011
11:07 AM
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From David Kott's website-
Some people tend to think that certain models sound better than others. I haven't found this to be the case, as I said before, each one will have some tonal quality unique to it. It may be because a person happened to get one of a certain model # that sounded better than a couple others that they've tried. I've heard a few people say that the model 440 bullet has a better tone than the 520. The model 440 uses the exact same model element that the 520 uses! The difference is the shell. The 440 bullet has a much larger, single vent hole in it on the bottom of the shell below the tag, as opposed to the 2 small vent holes that the 520's have. This will alter the sound of the mic. It may also be a cause of excessive feedback!
Another thing that I've heard people say is that the higher the resistance reading is, the more gain, or hotter the element will be. This is nonsense! Differences in resistance of the windings is not going to determine how hot an element will be. At least not at differences as small as 100 or so ohms on a high Z controlled magnetic element as used in today’s applications. Yes, a low Z CM element will not have the gain of a high Z element, but the difference in resistance is much larger, and they're usually plugging them into a guitar amp that has 1 meg or higher input impedance. While it is true with certain microphones, a small difference in resistance with CR and CM elements is not going to make an element stronger or weaker than another. I have had CR's close to 1,400 ohms that weren't any stronger than CM's that were 1050 ohms. In fact, I've had some lower resistance elements that were much hotter than elements of higher resistances. There are many things that determine how much gain these elements have. Slight differences in resistance is not one of them.
There are many things that can affect how well an element of this type performs. I can't get into everything, but the main ones are magnet strength, armature alignment, diaphragm condition, debris getting into the magnetic assembly, crud collecting on the diaphram and corrosion build up. I've had people send me elements that they tried to clean up with steel wool. Not a good idea! NEVER clean a magnetic element with steel wool, and if you use it to prepare a shell for painting, make sure that you remove the element from the shell and store it in a zip lock plastic bag or something to prevent it from coming into contact with the metal dust from the steel wool. The magnet will suck the fine steel into the magnetic assembly and the element more than likely will need to be disassembled and thoroughly cleaned. Using brass wool is not a good idea either as the metal dust can still get into the assembly and cause problems. If you must clean up your element, use a lint free cloth with water or alcohol if needed and do not stick anything into the little holes in the face of the element. If your element needs to be taken apart and cleaned, do not attempt to do this yourself. You'll likely end up ruining the element. Send it to a qualified technician.
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rharley5652
428 posts
Mar 19, 2011
12:49 PM
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@ toddlgreene,.
I think you miss read what I wrote about the tube change in the EVJ,.
"Jim was saying don't change the tubes in the EVJ"
I will surely Let Jim know about Your change RCA Grey Plate 6QB5 power tube and a JJ 12AX7,.Maybe that set up will work for him.
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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Matzen
82 posts
Mar 19, 2011
5:14 PM
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From David Kott's website-
"The 440 bullet has a much larger, single vent hole in it on the bottom of the shell below the tag, as opposed to the 2 small vent holes that the 520's have. This will alter the sound of the mic. It may also be a cause of excessive feedback!"
Could you just shoot some silicone in the vent holes? Would this help with feedback?
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rharley5652
429 posts
Mar 19, 2011
10:08 PM
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@ Matzen,.
Yep ,.a lil' dab will do ya on the silicone to close the vent hole ,.the early 707 style (small shell's) "specially designed for recording" never had the vent holes ><
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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MP
1519 posts
Mar 20, 2011
12:31 PM
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are you too close to the amp? perhaps right in front of it? just checking.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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