I bought the tone clinic lesson from kudzurunner, I felt bad because I didn't watch all of his 300+ videos on youtube and I thought I should do that before paying for any kind of lessons but I was intrigued by the vibrato part of the tone clinic and this guy gave us so much, the least I could do was send him a $5 (poor guy here).
Anyway, I realized I already have a vibrato (I've been playing every day for a year), the thing is my vibrato is coming from the diaphragm, not the throat... Is this bad?
I always thought there was another vibrato, some kind of bending vibrato...
What I had in mind is the firt notes of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ou-6A3MKow at 0:45
My vibrato is not as strong, obviously...
Also I just checked wikipedia and vibrato is a change of pitch, tremolo is a change of amplitude (volume)... so anyway, I thnk mine is more a tremolo than a change of pitch (which is what's in the video, at least to my ear).
Thanks guys, I think I'm getting somewhere with this instrument and I'm very pleased and humbled by the road ahead.
Hi there. Have a look at this old thread I started a year or so ago: Vibratto is a Lie!. Lot's of great stuff came up in it, and you'll likely find some answers there too. I've taken down the audio files that I had posted in that thread, but if you are interested, I can re-host them and send you a link.
Also, if you search for "vibrato" in the forum search tool (lower left), you will find several more interesting threads on this topic, including this one, which is very useful too.
Have a look through those older threads, and then let us know if you have any additional questions, and we'll jump off from there!
So, reading through all those posts, I guess you can sum it up like this:
We use the term "vibrato" incorrectly, but that's fine. It's just a technicality. Everybody knows what you mean and nobody really cares if it's being used wrong unless there's a specific reason to differentiate between the two.
I've recorded examples of different harmonica techniques and effects, including 4 types of vibrato. Well thefourth type ( diaphragm) is a tremolo, but since most people are used to calling it a vibrato - let it be.
@praefect: If you are able to get diaphragm vibrato, count your blessings. It is the most difficult method of getting vibrato and produces the deepest and richest tone.
Although many good players subscribe to the technique described by the late Chis Michalek in the posted vid, (and Chris was truly a great player) I personally find it to be a weak substitute for true throat vibrato.
Paul Butterfield played with strong diaphragmatic vibrato. PB was, of course, one of the all time greats and sounds great. Playing with diaphragm vibrato ain't easy. If you can do it, DON'T CHANGE!
It is the nature of harmonica that sometimes a novice player will sort of accidentally stumble on an advanced technique by happenstance as they are learning and become able to implement the advanced technique at a very early stage of development. That seems to be what happened with you. Of course, daily practice is a wonderful thing and a great catalyst for developing technique in general. Don't doubt yourself--just keep doing what you are doing!
P.S. I just saw Jim's post, and i agree with his observation that diaphragm vibrato is more of a tremolo. But it is still very difficult to do well and done correctly produces wonderful depth of tone.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2011 6:11 AM
Further thoughts: I just listened to the Howlin Wolf vid you are trying to copy. Okay, do you use your tongue to bend notes? I ask this because it is possible to bend using the throat without involving the tongue and that is essentially the same technique one uses to get throat vibrato and is what HW is doing in this vid.
Some players talk about making a coughing movement in the throat or tightening/constricting the epiglottis or glottis (i forget which). These things will work, too, but an easier way to achieve throat vibrato is to simply constrict the throat (or it may be the root of the tongue which is so far back it seems like the throat) by sub-vocalizing the vowel sound "eee" and rapidly repeating it as you inhale by pulling air in from the diagram (NOT the mouth or throat). Using the vowel sounds "ooow" or "ahh" or "ooh" will also work but will deepen the alternating note the vibrato drops to--in fact sub-vocalizing these respective 3 sounds ("ooow" "ahh" "ooh") and holding them as you draw will give you the 3 respective half step bends on 3 hole draw.
Now, for this to work your tongue must be low and out of the way if you are LPing (or on the harp if you are TBing). You must use DEEP embouchure and your jaw should be relaxed and dropped to give you a large, relaxed oral resonance chamber. Your throat and airway should be RELAXED and OPEN, except when you tighten to sub-vocalize the selected vowel sound as you draw in. The air flow has to be deep (pulled from the diaphragm), smooth and unobstructed for the sub-vocalization to have the desired effect when it is applied. try it--it works.
Btw, all the stuff about embouchure, resonance chamber, open and relaxed airway, deep diaphragmatic air flow etc. are also important to achieve good tone,
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2011 6:46 AM
I am fairly certain that Butterfield used throat vibrato,not diaphragmatic. I know Musslewhite uses throat vibrato-I have witnessed it from 5 feet away. I don't see Wolfs throat moving in that vid-makes me wonder if he really is using throat vibrato there-. If you are able to use your diaphragm for playing in addition to vibrato,that is a huge plus.
The throat does not necessarily need to visibly move in order to produce throat vibrato. I have seen throat movement from some players but not others and my own throat doesn't show visible movement.
Throat vibrato/diaphragm vibrato are not either/or. they are distinct techniques and the same player can use both.
Very rarely have I seen someone use throat vibrato without some sort of visibility. If the adams apple is not moving,then it's not a true throat vibrato. The same player may use either/or,but not at the same time-.
@tmf714: You know, I'm a relatively large fellow (used to play football in college) and i have a somewhat thick neck. I can feel movement in my throat as i use throat vibrato if I put my finger on the front of my neck, but it's not visible if i look in a mirror.
Howlin Wolf was even bigger than i am and also has a thick neck, which may explain why we don't see his throat move, either. Lee Sankey is a thinner guy and his throat movement is visible.
Sankey is a very skilled player. But I still think that the effect produced by the jaw movement technique he describes (which definitely works well) can be duplicated with just using the throat, although that is harder to do.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2011 8:51 AM
I've come to feel that the jaw movement vibrato (which I learned from Chris's video, actually) is superior for blow notes, especially higher blow notes, but that other sorts of vibrato (throat and/or diaphragmatic) are better for the lower draw notes that are so crucial for good cross harp and 3rd position playing.
Technique is a means to an end, and the end is NOT technical perfection but an individuated sound. Rice Miller's vibrato is harsh in some ways--fast and sharp--but it's utterly distinct, and thus perfect, as I see it. Jay Gaunt has a great jaw vibrato (as I hear it) on "Greensleeves" that beautifully complements what he's doing. Carey Bell can get a whispery sort of vibrato on some blow notes and I've tried hard to get some of it into my own playing.
Vibrato on single notes, BTW, is a whole 'nother kettle of fish from vibrato on big octaves. My own sense is that throat/diaphram vibrato is superior, perhaps even far superior, to jaw vibrato when big low octaves are involved. You tell me.
I tend to use throat vibrato in the lower octave, tongue in the middle octave, and jaw at the top. Different amplitude and different level of pitch control. ---------- Free Harp Learning Center
As a general rule. I tend to find that the farther back in the mouth/throat anatomy a player can implement a particular technique, the deeper and fuller and more even the tone will be.
Not necessarily saying deeper and fuller is ALWAYS better. It depends on the sound the player is attempting to create and the register the player is working in. But, on the other hand, IMHO, deeper and fuller is rarely a bad thing.
AS hvyj was saying Paul Butterfield the song "Bread and Butterfield" on the CD "North and South" THAT is your answer! I can't do it like that. Shit! I do the diaphram thing. I tried the jar vibrato. Thats weak! Although I found a very useful little trick useing the jar vibrato. When I do a blow diaphram vibrato (Tremelo) on the blow chord (123) I do the jar vibrato at half the speed of the diaphram vibrato. It sounds cool as hell and I didn't get it off anyones record! All in all the throat vibrato like PB is the way to go!
