If you aren't bending (or overblowing/overdrawing) third position puts you in Dorian, not natural minor.
If you are bending and overblowing/overdrawing you can play A minor on a G harp, but you can also play A major, or A mixolydian or any other A scale or mode you can think of.
Thanks guys. I just can't get my head around that Circle of Fifths business. I would spend time learning it but I know I'll only use it once in a blue moon. My heads filled with enough sh*t as it is. ----------
@tookatooka: Once you learn the circle of fifths, you start to see how almost everything in music relates to it.
How many sharps in E major (four o'clock on the circle)? Four!
What are the main chords in a blues in E? E, A (three o'clock on the circle, one step counterclockwise from E) and B (five o'clock on the circle, one step clockwise from E).
What are the notes in the G major pentatonic scale? G, A, B, D, E. They're all beside each other on the circle: G (one o'clock), D (two o'clock), A (three o'clock), E (four o'clock), B (five o'clock).
There's lots more than just positions. ---------- What?
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2011 10:35 AM
The third and seventh note of the Major scale are a semitone flat. Thats what they mean by minor. Now thats Dorian Mode. If someone says Natural Minor thats the third, sixth and seventh that are a semitone flat.
Third position: use a harp ONE FULL step lower than the tonic of the key you want to play in.
Fourth position: Use a harp FIVE AND A HALF steps lower than the tonic of the key you want to play in.
Fifth position: Use a harp THREE FULL STEPS lower than the tonic of the key you want to play in.
For purposes of figuring out what harp to use for which position, I find this easier to remember than screwing around with the Circle of Fifths.
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2011 1:34 PM
@hvyj For purposes of figuring out what harp to use for which position, I find it easier just to remember the Circle of Fifths. Then here is the bare minimum a harp player needs to know about the circle of fifths:
If you know the key of the music, and want to play in Xth position, just move X-1 steps counter-clockwise from the music key to find your harp key.
If you have a harp in your hand and want to know what key you are playing in Xth position, just move X-1 steps clockwise from the harp key to find the music key.
Usually, I could care less how many sharps/flats there are in, e.g., the Bb major scale, but yes, that info is also embedded in the circle of fifths.
There are easy mnemonics for remembering the circle of fifths. I made up my own, and use it often. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2011 1:04 PM
Nothing wrong with using the Circle of Fifths and there is A LOT of musical information to be gleaned from it.
But, third position scale starts on the second note of the first position scale/ fourth position scale starts on the sixth note of first position/ and fifth position scale starts on the third note of first position. First position=the key of the harp.
Purely for my own convenience, I find this easier to remember than the Circle of Fifths. But, YMMV.
Tooka ,3rd position is just playing in the key of A on a G harp, it is not minor nor major . It is true that most people use 3rd position when it comes to minor songs , but if you follow the link in my signature , and go to the William Clarke's "Bllowin the family jewels" tab, played in the 3rd position on a G harp , you will hear What I am talking about.
you can use the circle of 5ths without studying it if you just arrange your harps in the case in circle of 5ths order. the primary 7 in mine are arranged: Bb F C G D A E. you then just count backward starting with the song key. so if the song's in E, 1st position is the E, 2nd the one before it, A, 3rd the one before that, D, etc. piece of cake.
Great videos. The Chromatic ones are very helpful.
----- One interesting thing is that these three videos seem to have gone in "Beard" Progression. I'm doing calculations right now to predict what the next video picture will look like. :)
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2011 5:53 PM
the circle of 5ths diagram that I got from this forum is very useful tho I only play 1st 2nd and 3rd position I can see how it expands onto 4th 5th 6th positions
A bandleader I work with regularly and who has a Masters in Music says you have to keep staring at the Circle of Fifths for a while and contemplate it in order to extract the depth of musical info that's there.
Undoubtedly true. But i think there's easier ways to remember what key harp to use for which position.
Personally, I've never organized my harps according to the Circle of Fifths and I regularly use 5 positions when I perform. Not to say that using the Circle of Fifths is a bad idea. Just that, IMHO, there's other easy ways to keep this stuff straight, so one should not have to feel inadequate if one does not use the Circle of Fifths for this purpose.
Altho I was joking in my previous post - I still have no idea how to use the circle of fifth. I simple have memorized what to use in 2nd pos. (for what it is worth, if you know your I, IV, V, (ie. E, A, B) just use the IV for 2nd pos.) and for 3rd I just count back two 1/2 steps.
---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
If you can't play, it doesn't matter what key the song is in, what circle you find pleasing, or what position you take. Get a groove,know when to play,and enjoy the moment. When in doubt, lay out. But that's just me. :)
Even just having the circle printed out can be really useful. You can count around from the original key to find all the positions. The inside shows the relative minor keys. You don't really need to worry about the key signatures until you start getting into more advanced stuff.
Here is the simple explanation- Major keys have a certain pattern of steps and half steps. Each major key has a relative minor.
Imagine you are playing a game of hopscotch on a hopscotch grid that keys going forever. If you jump in in one spot and do the pattern it's a major key. If you jump in in another it's the relative minor.
Going around the circle it's all about doing the same pattern over and over, only starting on a different place. It's pretty easy at first, because to change the pattern you only have to start in a different place and change one step in the pattern. Of course, on the harp, it's more complicated because most of your blows and draws switch.
The idea seems hard at first, but once you understand the idea of the circle, that it's just about keeping the same pattern of steps and half steps going, then you go from having to memorize to being able to sit down and write it out. It's like doing multiplication tables. At first you memorize, but then you start to see the pattern.
Jawbone, if you have memorized what to use in 2nd position, you have already memorized the circle! Make a circle like you were going to make a clock (since the circle has 12 spots like a clock). Put the C at the top at 12 O'clock. What key would you use to play second position if the band was in C? Write that down at 11 O'clock. Then take that key and write the key you'd use for that at 10. Go all the way around like that. You can map out the minors the same way, except you put the A at 12 O'clock, since A is the relative minor for C, and it will show you all the major/minor pairings.
You can even use it to figure out key signatures. C Major doesn't have any flats or sharps. Going clockwise from the top, add one sharp each move until you've added 6. Then go back to the top and go counter-clockwise and add 1 flat each step until you've added 6. You'll notice Gb and F# end up sharing a spot, and that's perfect, because they are the same note!
There is all sorts of complicated science about resonance and how fifths sound with octaves and crazy physics and math, but you don't really need to know that unless you get into tuning pianos! (Well, actually, it's got to do with Just and Equal tuning, but that won't be on the test!) :)
I would like to suggest an ammendment and a correction.
"Fourth position: Use a harp FIVE AND A HALF steps lower than the tonic of the key you want to play in." I suggest, grab a harp 3 HALF STEPS UP. Em in 4th = G harp
"Fifth position: Use a harp THREE FULL STEPS lower than the tonic of the key you want to play in." I think you meant to say TWO FULL STEPS LOWER Em in 5th = C harp
recap: To play ... Eminor in 3rd grab D harp in 4th grab G harp (edit per hvyj, my goof) in 5th grab C harp (edit per hvyj, my goof)
(isn't it intresting how G,C,and D are also the I,IV,V chords to most blues songs??)
---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2011 3:43 PM
Well, I'm counting down: counting E as one, D as two and C as three when i count down three steps to determine that I use a C harp for playing in the key of E in 5th position--and there is no doubt that C is the correct harp to use for playing E in 5th position.
To look at it another way Phrygian mode starts on the third degree of the home scale. So counting down from the third (E) gives you the key of the harp to use for 5th position playing (C).
You may not be including the note you start on (E) in computing the number of steps you are counting down which is okay so long as you understand how you are counting.
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2011 12:30 PM
