mrjoeyman
41 posts
Feb 10, 2018
11:14 PM
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Did you know when you draw-bend a note on the harp, it is the blow reed that makes the sound? Mind blown.
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MindTheGap
2509 posts
Feb 10, 2018
11:23 PM
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For further mind blowing - actually it's both reeds that act in tandem. By some mysterious process they start to both vibrate at a pitch somewhere between the two natural pitches.
Don't start asking how this works, it's one of the unsolved riddles of the universe. People on MBH often claim to know how this works, but I've not seen a real explanation above throwing the names of physical phenomena into a hat and picking them out at random.
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mrjoeyman
42 posts
Feb 11, 2018
12:09 AM
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It's probably something to do with entanglement or the space-time continuum but I will leave that up to the Einstein's of the harmonica universe :)
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MindTheGap
2512 posts
Feb 11, 2018
4:25 AM
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Indeed. Gravity waves maybe. So glad you didn't mention 'resonance'. Long story... :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2018 4:25 AM
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SuperBee
5261 posts
Feb 11, 2018
1:34 PM
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Yep, the reeds interact but the deeper the bend the greater the involvement of the lower pitched reed. This is part of the reason it’s important to have both reeds adjusted in balance. I’ve known people to be quite confused about this, and push the draw reed closer to the slot in the belief it would make the bend easier to obtain. One example I saw had rendered the 4 draw virtually unplayable let alone bendable, while the actual problem of an overly wide-gapped blow reed was ignored.
At risk of veering to widely from the topic I’ll add that I believe this sort of thing is also the most common factor in the phenomenon of ‘leaky’ harps. At least among the harps we commonly think of as ‘quality’ units. I think also when people describe a harp as ‘stiff’ it’s usually about the reed offsets and the requirement for both reeds to work together is not always well-understood. Nor I suspect is the fact that a very small adjustment can make a very big difference. Reed offsets are commonly calibrated in thousandths of an inch.
Back on topic perhaps, it’s the overbending which is currently eluding me. I feel like I can understand two reeds of different pitches operating at the same time to produce a pitch which is a compromise of both, but when we overbend, we stall one reed and get a pitch from the other which is approximately a semitone higher than it usually produces
So, C harp 6 chamber blow is G. Draw is A.
We blow 6 and stall the blow reed, while activating the draw reed somehow, which now produces a tone closer to Bb than A.
Presumably just the pressure of air moving out through the draw side slot is great enough that it will get the reed moving if it’s been set close enough to be in the way.
So now the draw reed is moving and by its springy nature it is moving in and out of the slot, chopping up the airstream and creating an audible tone which is a semitone sharper than it would produce if it was chopping air flowing in the other direction.
I’m not quite sure why that is? But I suspect it’s connected with the way we can control the reed to (presumably) slow down in order to produce a lower pitch (as in single reed bend down, like a valved harp). I do know I can make a reed play sharp with very light breath force and open throat (this is actually how I learned to produce a vibrato from throat).
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 11, 2018 1:43 PM
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MindTheGap
2514 posts
Feb 11, 2018
2:54 PM
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I don't want to go down the physics road again, but the most convincing thing I've read (not on MBH) suggests that the harmonic reed is made to vibrate by vortex shedding, which is the effect that causes wires to sing in the wind. Most of the 'common sense' arguments about pressure opening and closing doors etc. probably aren't correct, and often end up with something non-physical being stated.
So I've given up trying to understand it, and just enjoy the result. Apart from overbends which I don't enjoy ha ha :) Just a joke. Why they pop up about a semi-tone high is odd though isn't it. Like the universe favours blues.
I think your point is useful though - knowing that conventional bends involves both reeds, so you need to take both draw and blow reeds into account when tweaking.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2018 2:57 PM
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SuperBee
5265 posts
Feb 11, 2018
3:33 PM
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Well yeah and it doesn’t really make sense that when both reeds are operating in a draw bend the normally lower pitched reed is producing a lower pitch but in a single reed bend the reed going ‘the wrong way’ produces a higher pitch so I will forget about my imaginary understanding.
I’m OT again, (sorry OP) but I watched a video today of the amazing Christelle Berthon and I noted 2 things
I could absolutely pick the overbending. Clearly they were different timbre or maybe it was volume but they stood out.
Although they stood out, I didn’t find them particularly jarring. It was the ‘normal’ 3 draw bend she used which grated.
I hadn’t really registered this before. I just always thought christelle is a wonderful player and skilled musician but I don’t like that overbending sound. I hadn’t realised how much of that ‘sound’ I found less than captivating was contributed by draw bends.
It’s not just the repertoire per se either. I heard Richard Gilewicz (sp?) play a tune on guitar yesterday which would fall solidly into the kind of ‘pop classic/showtune’ Repertoire and found new appreciation for ‘both sides now’, but when I hear these things on harmonica invariably they just strike me as very clever but cold.
Maybe I just don’t care for harmonica so much.
Obviously untrue but I do think I like it in particular contexts. I’ve actually narrowed my listening over the last few years to become more specialised and competent at the style In which I like to hear harmonica. This is weird. I have to stop writing now. I’m having an epiphany.
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mrjoeyman
43 posts
Feb 11, 2018
5:39 PM
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No problem veering in other directions here. I was interested to hear your thoughts on Christelle. I think she is so freakin gifted and love to hear her play.....until I hear her vibrato. That particular style of vibrato puts me off and I don't really understand why. I love Brendan Power's vibrato but that's just me. So I get your epipaniality. We are all just different. Hey I just made a new word.
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MindTheGap
2516 posts
Feb 11, 2018
11:30 PM
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I DO think it's useful to observe and what is happening (single-reed bends, double-reed bends, overbends and reed-choking) because - as you say - when it comes to the practical business of tweaking that points you in the right direction. It's the extrapolation into the causes that seems to be a unhelpful. Like the assertion that all reed failure is metal fatigue: the symptoms don't match the theory.
Re your ephiphany (and sort of re B&H's jazz thread, now gone south!) - it's an attractive idea that the harmonica can be used to play ANY kind of music. I'd love that to be true - the harp has so many plusses. I think lots of harp enthusiast think that, but not so many of the listening public. That doesn't denigrate the harp IMO, just how it is.
For a while, I tried playing the horn parts of soul songs on a diatonic or chromatic. I had to admit it was OK, but not good. Definitely worth a try though.
The bassoon make a lovely sound, but not so good for Smoke on the Water.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2018 11:37 PM
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SuperBee
5267 posts
Feb 12, 2018
1:33 AM
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I realised I love the harp in some settings and not in others. I don’t love it for its own sake. Don’t automatically think music is interesting because it has a well-played harp part.
I don’t love harmonica. I do pretty much love singing. I feel I can almost truthfully say that I will find good singing interesting across the whole range of music. But harmonica, while it sometimes pleasantly surprises me by popping up in an unexpected cameo role, really has far more limited appeal to me, aesthetically.
And I’ve become very involved in it, possibly more than is really merited considering my overall opinion of the thing. Oh well, it’s a path I’ve chosen and an investment.
I’ll start another thread. About harps and things.
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MindTheGap
2517 posts
Feb 12, 2018
3:51 AM
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Seems fair enough. You have the advantage of being a singer, and the voice IS something than can be used on every song! I do feel that the combo of singing & harp is a nice rounded set of skills.
I have to say playing drums is better in this particular aspect. Like singing, drums are welcome, normal and very often essential to all kinds of music genres. No justification needed.
Except in straight-up blues and film scores, it seems that the harp always has to explain its presence.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 12, 2018 3:55 AM
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indigo
469 posts
Feb 12, 2018
7:07 PM
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'Bee and Gap just like to jump in here and say how much i enjoy your conversations on this board.
I learn a lot but mainly i just like the self deprecating wit that shows through your posts.
If we were in a Bar i'd buy the first few rounds.
Of course i am making the presumption (before consumption)that you both enjoy a nice pint or two.;-)
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