I know I know, I'm going to go on about the Harp Break again. So click away now.
But on the main forum the question is often asked about what amp to buy to be loud enough - there's a bit of toing and froing about smaller amps, and then answer is always to stop faffing about and get a Bassman. That does sound like the right answer - I don't own one but I've heard one and they are indeed loud and strong.
Well, I don't want a Bassman for various reasons, including money, weight, storage, transport, protecting my back and not being accused of having all the gear and no idea. So I'd go a long way to find an alternative.
Normally I use my 5W amp lined out to the PA, but last week I put the Harp Break straight into our PA, which I haven't done for a while. We have a 'small room' PA but it does give 400W clean and we never turn it up (indoors) about 4/10.
Anyway point is, not only did it sound good (I mean as good as I can sound at home, before anyone starts :) ) but was easily loud enough. I could make it TOO loud - louder than guitars and drums, imagine that? With a G harp it was a punchy, rather alarming sound and I remember the Bassman felt like that.
I don't know about you, but when the basic is sound is nice, I feel like playing fewer notes, and I can have fun playing a simple thing and mucking about with the timbre, vibrato, slaps and pulls, rhythmic figures and so on. Which is good, as I'm not much good at playing complex stuff.
I don't have any connection to the manufacturer BTW!!! :)
---------- mtg - Blaring like a mad farm goose.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 23, 2016 4:13 AM
Yep, this is why I sometimes think I was hasty in selling mine, once it occurred to me how incredibly over the top loud was the PA I tried to use mine with the night it just delivered feedback at every attempt to use it. And that the sound engineer the second time I used it had no idea of harmonica amplification subtleties. For me, not using the PA was a choice more about control of what I was hearing rather than what the punters heard. I had a series of gigs where I could not hear myself, interspersed with gigs where I could hear quite well. The band did a lot of travelling, rarely managed our own sound (that was usually done by the equipment provider hired by the venue but sometimes the band we supported would manage the sound) and I didn't know enough about PA to suggest how they should do it..,so I began taking my 30w combo and became comfortable with that. Lately I've been playing through PA and it's always the same venue, same soundy, I'm part of the establishment and have some ability to influence what's happening with sound, and harp is always on the menu...and it's not practical for me to carry an amp and set up for the possibility of playing 1 or 3 numbers should the need arise..it's a blues gig with s jam session in the second set...sometimes they want a harp player, not always, and there are a couple to choose from so we share it about... I would always prefer an amp though, personally. I'm just more comfortable with that
This sounds kind of cool. From a beginners perspective, never having played amplified.... I have easy access to a Lunchbox amp and one place I might play has a PA. I don't know what kind. If I picked up a decent mike and a harp break would I be able to get a decent amplified sound through headphones and or the speaker on the lunchbox, and through the PA? It seems like an easy way to go until the funds / need are available or HAS and availability drive the need for a real tube amp.
I don't think getting a bassman is a great answer at all. I think a quality 5w tube amp with an out to a PA is more effective for most. And alot also use the pedalboard out to PA route. Everyone can't afford, carry, or have room for a bassman. Also just as i have the problem with my 5w right now that it doesnt break up until it's too loud for home use. The bassman is also probably the same way. If your in a small club i can't imagine being able to get a great breakup sound at a reasonable volume for every room. So i agree that is not the answer for everyone. I personally wouldnt buy one right now even if i could. I have no need.
I got a good deal on some Lone Wolf pedals, so I'll do a review on my thoughts. But i anticipate being much more satisfied with the sound out of the pedals. Much more versitile option i think. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
i was probably the last poster to tell someone to get a bassman. thats based on personal experience. its not for everyone. if you dont play in a setting with full band, or that sort of volume, probably not. if you've got good control of the environment, maybe you can mic a smaller amp and rely on monitors from the PA and not have problems with feedback. i personally dont like the dependence on the person at the desk for what i hear, so i want an amp on stage that can serve as my monitor without PA support. breakup is a whole other angle. ive used my deville (louder than a bassman) at a matinee for 5 year olds and it was fine. i can gig it just off the stage in smaller rooms without need for PA. i was talking to ian collard one night and he told me the story of why he uses a bassman for festival gigs...the night i saw him he was using a blues jr (and just a little grumpy about it) augmented with a harp attack and tone+ i'll see if i can find these clips of Dave Barrett's Bassman at teh Grand Dell...yep this one you can see the amp behind him. how loud do you reckon this is? i dont think its abnormally loud.
Well I could be way off base as I don't own a bassman, but it was just my train of thought. As far as an onstage amp as a monitor i totally think that's better than relying on a house sound guy. When i did sound I knew all the bands and even how they played. When to boost effects on different parts of a song or a guitar channel for a solo. Etc. But not everyone has that. I wonder if it would be possible to run your signal thru a small mixer first and tweak your own sound when u get a horrible tech .. lol. But either way i guess I've really never been on the stage, other than on the monitor and light board, so everything i say is not really relevant to gigging musicians. Bassman may very well be the best option. I just can't see it being something i would want to lug around and deal with. Couldn't you just as easily get a speaker cabinet and run out of say a VHT when you need more Boom? ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I know you run into an obvious Problem of wattage, but that's easily overcome i think. As long as you have the circuitry making the sound you want signals can be boosted. I could be wrong is just an idea. An idea that doesnt cost what a bassman does. Lol. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
well i want to be able to hear my sound on the stage...just depends how loud the stage environment is...if i wanted to get foldback through the wedges id rather do what mtg suggests and just run a preamp of some kind and DI to PA. Having a small amp on stage that you cant hear with a mic in front of it and playing into another mic and getting the sound coming back through the wedges and trying to communicate with a guy at a desk about whether you can hear it and avoiding feedback and the issue of whether you are in just one monitor or sharing with a vocalist is all just a bloody headache...or it can be...running a lineout is ok but still all the potential issues of control and sharing monitors people find solutions they are happy with, and so much depends on the situation. for me life got better when i used a 410, after a few years of farting around with smaller amps. 410: put it on the stage, turn it up and play. mic it if you want but thats for foh, what you do with that is your business, how i sound up here is my lookout.
I guess that makes for a much nicer gig aswell. That VHT is pretty damn loud, but ive never heard it in a packed bar with a band playin. But i wouldn't mic the small amp. It does have an output. I know you don't get the speaker breakup, but ..... idk i guess I'll just have to experience it firsthand from the otherside. Ive miced plenty of amps on stage With no feedback issues, but never had a harp player. Sax, horn, guitar, etc. But they re not as feedback prone i suppose.
I'm interested to learn more about it now tho. Sounds like it could get more complicated than i thought. I hadn't really thought about the greater amount of feedback from the cupped mic. I guess i thought it was just as easy any other instrument. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
About the best gig straight to PA I had was when we supported the Beards and their sound guy managed the whole gig. Beta 57 mic, straight to the desk. That guy knew how lots of experience with the sax ..that's what I figured.
I think those David Barrett clips illustrate it nicely. Doesn't sound like a 'loud' band at all (no idea what the actual room volume is of course, but you know what I mean, not like your loud-loud band Superbee!) and the harp sound is dominant. It has oomph without effort. I heard a bassman in a louder-band setting, and it was oomphy like that. As I said, a slightly shocking sound IMO.
I'm guessing but I expect it is as simple as the bassman can put out a lot of volume at the lower frequencies. It was originally intended as a better bass amp after all! The ear has a great ability to normalise everything - you hear a song played live, on a hi-fi, on a transistor radio and it sounds like the same song but the volume and frequencies can vary massively.
Anyway, the Bassman or similar amp does seem like a simple answer for the reasons mentioned above - people say you set it up, play it, you're in control, you can hear yourself, the audience can hear you. Those seem like good features. I'm keen to have some of those attributes (specifically the oomph) without the back-breaking, bank-account-breaking effects!
Crawforde - all I can say is when I first got the Harp Break, I put it in front of every guitar amp I could find - even rubbishy ones - and they all sounded like harp-friendly versions of themselves. Very satisfying.
Just one note of caution though, when I tried recording directly off the HB, that was a disappointing, rather dull sound. I concluded that a speaker was required somewhere in the chain. So something like mic -> HB -> clean headphone amp -> headphones was a disappointment too.
My circumstances are specific: small rooms, no foldback required, a certain level of band volume. As I said at the start, I normally use my 5W amp + PA which also works - the 5W amp generates the tone and is the local 'monitor'. In a louder setting it would no longer function as a monitor.
Hope that all makes sense.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 24, 2016 1:02 AM
MTG that's kind what i figured. Using it as the monitor w/line out or mic out, but i suppose that doesn't always work. And a larger venue would require more, but i doubt i will sin be playing large venues.
I guess i just assumed a bassman would be too much for a small room.
Couldn't you just mic your amp for recording? That way you get the speaker breakup. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
kHz - Yes it definitely does work, in a small venue. And yes, it's a very good way to record. That's where the whole small-amp thing became popular (or so I read, I wasn't there). People using them to get a nice guitar tone without deafening everyone in the studio.
There's all the legends e.g. Eric Clapton using a little Champ on Layla.
I'm not sure about your extra cabinet idea though. There's only so much electrical power available from your VHT, but I do know it is something people do - a little amp into a different cab. Not tried it myself. Adam talks about having his own personal PA-type powered speaker fed from his mic'd up little tube amp (or lined out, I cant remember).
And I was recommended (by someone who knows) that you can line-out your little amp into a Bassman, and that's good.
Whichever way, the constraints you're dealing with are 1. getting heard, 2. getting the tone you want, 3. hearing yourself, 4. avoiding feedback. Not necessarily easy to do!
Despite those clips - I have heard tell of people wanting more breakup on the Bassman. That's one of the advertised uses of the HB actually. In fact if you listen carefully to those clips it's not a very distorted sound (in the scheme of things). DB is playing lots of TB 3rd position splits and stuff as he does and it sort of gives that impression. And very nice it is too.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 24, 2016 8:26 AM
Yea TB definatly makes it harder to tell what the amp is doing and what's you.
And i mentioned the wattage issue, but I'm sure someone makes some sort of signal booster that you can put between the amp and another cabinet. Even if they were self powered monitors. I guess that's what a PA is tho. But atleast it wouldn't be at the mercy of SLAPPY THE SOUND GUY. I'm sure I'm not reinventing the wheel here by far. I guess I'll just have to try it all and figure out the hard way. That's kinda my thing, i guess.
I'm excited to try these pedals out. I got a pretty decent deal on a few LW pedals. I will most likely sell most of them after getting to mess with em a bit as i don't need them. But who knows. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
But on the flip side exactly how many gadgets/pieces of equipment are we eventually ending up with?
And what is the cost/weight/storage difference between it and the bassman in the end?
Idk ... I'll cross those bridges when i get there i suppose, but i was just curious. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I tried to find out the weight of a Bassman, but couldn't find it. Whatever it is - too heavy for me.
One of our 200W PA powered speakers weighs 14 pounds I think. They have these amazing new (to me anyway) Class D amps in them, nearly 100% efficient. Not very attractive to look at though.
---------- mtg - Maybe get a blister on your little finger, maybe get a blister on your thumb.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2016 1:29 PM
23kg I think. Or maybe that is my Deville. I saw a drummer..seemed kinda old and frail..."how is he gonna move all that kit to his car?" I wondered. It was a festival, stage in a field, car parking over 200 metres away, in a field. I was on my way to offer help when I saw he had it all under control. Hand truck. I'd call it a trolley. The bass player had the same idea. Amp and cab stacked on a hand truck with big-enough wheels to ride the bumps. If I was lugging the Deville around I'd use something like that. If I didn't have a drummer to do it for me. As the codger in the band, often the young blokes were keen to help. Sometimes they even offer to carry my lead bag...I'm not that decrepit yet! This was at a jam wher I had to travel 15 metres from car to garage...with a briefcase and bag of leads..."can I carry something for you?" Think I'll be right... If you have a gig that repays your time, it's worth using a solution that helps you do your best work. If it's a spontaneous thing or 5 minutes in the spotlight, a compromise with more emphasis on convenience is probably in order. I've never regretted having the 410 although when I found myself with a room full of amps and no band, I decided I needed to lose a lot of amps. I did toss up which of the large amps to keep. A 30watt 12" combo, 40watt 12" combo fender deluxe, or the 60 watt 410 combo. I advertised them all for sale. The deluxe went first, then I sold the 30w last weekend. So I'm committed to the 410 now. The 30w was a cheap amp. It gave good service. The buyer plugged it into his hiwatt cab and I was amazed at how much better it sounded. He is cutting it down to a head to use with that cab. The cab was decent quality ply unit too. He really scored a bargain at $180. I couldn't believe no-one would buy it at that price...a pair of EL34 tubes is like $90 in the shops, and this had 4 decent preamp tubes besides, plus cab and a spare 12" speaker...not to mention the actual amp...transformers, pots, chassis...I'm starting to feel ripped off. Joke...amps have been a folly which resulted in a lot of clutter.. Actually, I think it's difficult to really learn about things without getting hands on. That's really why I have so much stuff, and that's what I think has led to my particular understanding of topics...I'm not saying 'I understand' as an absolute...I mean that what I think I understand, my own particular take on these topics, is down to my own unique experiences with the gear and the aspects I've studied. It's 'my truth', not necessarily (or even likely) 'the truth'. You can learn things vicariously, and a bit like in the 'revisiting harps' thread, your experience can change the way you see things...and sometimes you suddenly understand that thing which someone has been banging on about and you just though they were on a rant... That last has happened to me so often that I now figure that it's probable if someone holds a different opinion to me, there's likely a good reason. Maybe it's because they don't know what is going on, but it's also quite possible I am barking up the wrong tree. Oddly enough, while I'm shedding amps...I'm actually in the process of building one right now...so I'm gonna go play with that.
I sort of view the Bassman as the 'ultimate amp' rightly or wrongly. You know, no more messing around. No one's going to fire you for bringing a Bassman - that kind of ethic. If my ship were to come in, I could imagine ending up with one. And now I'd remember to buy a trolley too!
I agree about vicarious learning. But sometimes there's no alternative. Hence being on a forum and putting time and effort into that, I've picked up so much useful info not available elsewhere.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2016 3:23 PM
I just wanted to throw this in there while it's on my mind. We used to use In-ear monitors for some of our bands. Any harp player ever tried them? Could cute your feedback problem. Just a thought. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
