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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Kendrick 2410
Kendrick 2410
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joshnat
101 posts
Feb 03, 2011
9:53 AM
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I have the opportunity to buy a Kendrick 2140 from 1995 from a guitar player friend. The price seems good (USD 1100) and he's willing to let me pay him $100 until it's paid off. No interest.
I've been needing a higher power amp, and ironically I had bought a Silvertone 1474 (Twin Twelve Reverberation combo) in November, but haven't gigged it yet. I would probably sell this if I decide to get the Kendrick.
I've seen some posts here by 5F6H that mention this amp but I don't know anyone who uses it for harp. It sounds like a faithful reproduction of the 5F6-A circuit but this one has an effects loop. No reverb, no attenuator, which were both options.
Here's my question: never having played through a Bassman, will I only be able to get good tweedy breakup at very high volumes?
BBQ Bob posted about using the second channel's volume control to adjust gain, but the seller says he uses an overdrive pedal to get earlier breakup (for guitar). My intuition is that Tube Screamers and similar are like death for harp.
My mics are an Ultimate 545, white label CR and a Turner ceramic by Front and Center. All have volume control. Effects-wise I'm currently only using analog delay (right now Way Huge AquaPuss which I really like). This would go in the effects loop or in front, depending on how it sounds.
5F6H or BBQ or other Bassman users, any comments on this particular amp? I didn't want to hijack the other Bassman thread that's running right now.
Thanks all!
P.S., this GTR player is a Kendrick groupie. He has 3 amps and two guitars by Gerald Weber and takes extremely good care of his equipment. Certainly better than I do.
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5F6H
519 posts
Feb 03, 2011
10:13 AM
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I would say "BUY IT", your getting at a steal. For harp, it is potentially one of the most powerful Bassman amps. It also has an additional gain stage/effects loop built in (that can be switchd totally out of the circuit) as all Kendrick 2410s. It has great sounding speakers.
7LimitJI has one.
There are a couple of resistors & a cap that I would change (I personally prefer the 59/60 tone stack values, 2410 comes with the early 5F6A/Marshall tone stack), but this could well be the last harp amp, for stage use, that you ever buy.
Given a choice between the 2410 and the Texas Crude harp amp, I'd go 2410 EVERY time.
Only downside is that Gerald charges an arm and a leg for servicing, but it's nothing that can't be done by a good tech.
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tmf714
463 posts
Feb 03, 2011
10:46 AM
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Check out some of Geralds personal amps for sale on e-bay-item # 150554903991 and item # 150554913639.
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joshnat
102 posts
Feb 03, 2011
11:05 AM
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Thanks for the replies! I'm certainly inclined to go for it. The extra gain stage sounds like it's primarily for the effects loop but can be used almost like a master volume to soak the power tubes, if no effect is in the loop. Is this accurate?
Even doing this, I wonder about getting breakup at reasonable volumes. We play mostly smaller venues, but there are a few times a year when I will want "the big amp." I don't want it to blow up the mix just to get the right tone.
Cheers!
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Barry C.
157 posts
Feb 03, 2011
11:14 AM
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hey josh - you might want to use an attenuator with it! also come check-out my meteor amp when it arrives.
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~Banned in Boston!
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5F6H
520 posts
Feb 03, 2011
11:26 AM
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You can use the effects loop as an additional gain stage, for earlier break up, you can also try a 12AX7 in V1, or a 5751. Rectifier swaps may be useful, the amp comes with a GZ34/5AR4, but you can fit a 5U4G, or even a Weber VST WR4 (SS version of the 5R4, one of the ruggedised "potato masher" 5R4 types might be fine, check with Gerald, he always seems to be willing to talk about amps...even if they're not his).
Another possibility would be to use it as a slave for a smaller amp with a line out.
Not being funny, but you can play softer too, whilst this amp can be loud, you don't have to play loud into it...you can just tickle it, with any 45-55W 4x10 amp, you can get a bit more flexibility in your playing style & dynamics, rather than constantly running a less powerful amp constantly on the ragged edge...it is a concept a lot of players I know struggle with, as they're pretty used to blowing hard, just to be heard.
If I got hold of one of these amps, you have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers...I'll give you $1100, plus shipping for it if you don't like it! Though I suspect I may have to get in line...;-)
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 11:28 AM
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joshnat
104 posts
Feb 03, 2011
1:32 PM
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@5F6H: Thanks again for your useful and thoughtful response. You've always got some of the best advice on this board about tube amps and circuits. One question: you said, "you can also try a 12AX7 in V1, or a 5751." I would have assumed the amp already had a 12AX7 in V1? Or does it have something lower gain in V1 like a 12AT7 or a 12AY7? I have examples of all of these around somewhere, so I can experiment and see how they sound.
@Barry: Definitely want to check out your Meteor. When do you expect to receive it?
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tmf714
464 posts
Feb 03, 2011
1:59 PM
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The 2410 is delivered with 12AX7's. It definetly was NOT a harp voiced amp-it was built as a guitar amp-but-it was the first mass produced hand wired point-to-point amp of the early 90's.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 2:06 PM
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7LimitJI
376 posts
Feb 03, 2011
2:07 PM
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Josh
Buy it ! Its a great amp.At that price its a steal.
Well built, excellent transformers, speakers are the best I've heard and I've heard a lot.
Look what Gerald was asking for his!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150554904943&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 2:09 PM
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5F6H
522 posts
Feb 03, 2011
2:20 PM
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TMF714 - You are probably right about the 12AX7...Gerald even ships the Texas Crude Harp Amp & the Kendrick 1210 harp amp, with 12AX7, the 2210 (a 2x10" version of the bassman, not specifically aimed at harp players) did ship with a 12AY7 though? Gerald does recommend tube subs for V1 however, even for humbucker guitar players. He has written about this in his books, as well as other places.
As far as voicing goes, it is not voiced any differently as far as circuit values/frequency response are concerned (tone stack values & coupling cap values etc. are used accross the board, Kendrick blackframe speakers are as good as anything for harp), to many amps sold & used today for harp. The changes I suggested above are my preference, not exclusively for "harp" per se.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 2:30 PM
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barbequebob
1520 posts
Feb 04, 2011
7:52 AM
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When they first came out, they were much closer to the real sound of a Bassman than the reissues ever were, but they still didn't quite sound like the real deal.
The first preamp tube on a real 4-10 Bassman has ALWAYS been a 12AY7, and each brand sounds a bit different. I don't care for any of the new manufactured versions and still prefer NOS GE 5-Star or early 60's RCA over any of the new ones by a mile.
No 4-10 Bassman EVER had reverb in them and if you ever found one that did, that's obviously a mod.
This isn't a bad deal but overall, the closest to the real deal that I've ever run across are the Sonny Jr 4-10 (which is no longer made), which like the real deal, uses audio taper pots rather than linear taper pots (and swap 2 of the speakers to match the other two Weber SVT P10R's, which sound closest to a REAL P-10R Jensen, and the reissues don't at all); Clark Piedmont (so long as you don't get it with a harp mod, which is basically a crock and for people too freaking lazy to develop good acoustic tone, breath control and play rosonantly and the harp mod stuff often doesn't cut thru the mix very well on real gigging situations), or a Victoria 45410, but made in the 90's.
The way that second channel volume controls works is NOT like a master volume control at all. What you do is plug into whichever channel you wish first as your main channel. I plug into the #1 input on the normal channel, set the volume control on the amp where I want it, and then set the volume on the bright channel no higher than 6. What it does is put the amp on max gain, boosting the bass and lower midrange. However, DO NOT turn it past 6 or you will lose volume substantially.
Gerald Weber's book, "A Desktop Reference of Hip Vintage Guitar Amps," has the single finest chapter explaining everything about 4-10 Bassmans and the difference between the reissues and the real deal.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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5F6H
526 posts
Feb 04, 2011
8:30 AM
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BBQ Bob "so long as you don't get it with a harp mod, which is basically a crock and for people too freaking lazy to develop good acoustic tone, breath control and play rosonantly and the harp mod stuff often doesn't cut thru the mix very well on real gigging situations"
What is this "harp mod" to which you refer? There are about a 70 components in a bassman, most of which, in isolation, may be doubled (or in some cases quadrupled), or halved and the amp stil sound like a REAL bassman...as evidenced by the differing amps you quote as being good reproductions ( but have different circuits)...even REAL bassmans had varied circuits, at least 12 permutations to my knowledge alone.
The Kendrick can do what the other reproductions can do, but potentially it can also go somewhat louder than the other amps referenced. All the repros you quote use audio pots, not linear, only the RI used linear...but somehow they usually still have a slower taper than many originals! The current Victorias have a very gentle taper.
Other than the speakers, what's more desirable about the 90's Victorias?
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 8:30 AM
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7LimitJI
380 posts
Feb 04, 2011
8:34 AM
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@BBQ
I don't agree with you regarding the Jensens.
I've heard and owned early 1950's ones and re-issue, they are very middy sounding and a bit dull and flat for harp.
The Kendrick blackframes that are in this are superb and full sounding.
Geralds amps are very well made and he specs main components like the transformers. They are reverse engineered to give the precise voltage at given main tube bias.
They are VERY high voltage when running with cold bias,and enable great bass response.
Mine was a NOS one. It came with perfectly matched output tubes. I mean perfect. They biased up exactly the same.
I have never heard of tubes being so well matched.
The pre-amp tubes are all NOS too.
It is by far the best Bassman I've heard.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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joshnat
105 posts
Feb 04, 2011
12:29 PM
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Thanks everyone for the input. I've decided to go for it and will be receiving it on Monday. More to come...
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joshnat
107 posts
Feb 08, 2011
11:29 AM
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Got the amp yesterday. Plugged in the Front&Center with NOS Turner ceramic and it sounds good. And LOUD. Didn't have much time to play around with it but I found I couldn't get past 2 on the normal channel before feedback. Swapped a 12AU7 in what I think is V1 (position closest to input and farthest from power tubes). This worked reasonably well, but there's still room for improvement.
I've been reading around this board and others, and I saw that Greg H. recommends the 12AX7 in V1 and 12AU7's in V2 and V3. But I see that 5F6H recommends swapping only V1. Of course some experimentation will be necessary, but I guess what's important to me is good tone at reasonable volumes. No stadium gigs on the schedule yet. And, with 4 or so preamp tube possibilities in 3 different preamp positions (not including the additional gain tube in the Kendrick), the variations add up pretty quickly.
My guess is that this is a slightly different animal than the Bassman RI's and therefore there are no universals. But if someone can suggest a place to get started I would be grateful. I would prefer not to change resistor values and I don't know what the bias procedure is on this amp...I can do all those things later. For now, I'd like to work with the existing circuit and roll tubes.
Am I right about V1 being closest to the input and V3 being closest to the power tubes?
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5F6H
530 posts
Feb 08, 2011
12:52 PM
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Joshnat, I & Greg are not in disagreement as your post might suggest, my suggestion to change V1 is based on my experience with the '59/'60 tone stack, however your amp as it stands & Gregs amp(s) have the earlier tone stack.
The different tone stack voices the amp slightly differently & tube sub suggestions will vary in effectiveness from one to the other. In the stock 2410 a higher mu tube like 5751/12aX7 in V1 will give better bass response, I would suggest a lower mu tube in V2 in preference, maybe a slightly lower mu tube in V3 (12AT7/5751). The only difference in Greg & my approaches is centred around V3, he seems to like a very lo mu tube here, I prefer higher, plus higher mu tubes put less stress on the plate resistors...in the end use what you think is best soundwise.
If I bought the 2410 I personally would change the tone stack values...but some folks prefer the one you have, it's just a matter of taste.
Unless you aggressively reduce gain with tube subs your volume might not get much above "2" or "3". This will have little bearing on how much power the amp makes, you can tune the sweep in the volume pot by tacking a resistor in parallel from the volume pot wiper to ground (this does not change the amp's tone, just calms down how fast it ramps up).
V1 is closest to the inputs, V3 is closest to the power tubes (we are excluding the extra gain stage for now). Given these 3 tube postions and 12AX7/5751/12AT7/12AY7/12AU7 & 12DW7 you have 178 options....but only 2 or 3 that will probably work with your most used mic.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2011 12:54 PM
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joshnat
108 posts
Feb 08, 2011
1:21 PM
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Thanks, 5F6H. What value resistor would you recommend to calm the volume control?
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tmf714
473 posts
Feb 08, 2011
1:42 PM
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" As far as voicing goes, it is not voiced any differently as far as circuit values/frequency response are concerned (tone stack values & coupling cap values etc. are used accross the board, " hmmmmm-here's the lowdown from the man himself-http://www.harpamps.com/weber/Guitar51.htm
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2011 1:55 PM
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5F6H
531 posts
Feb 08, 2011
3:05 PM
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TMF714 - the link you posted takes us to Gerald Weber's description of the Texas Crude 35W Harp amp (which, as with any amp that has been in production for the best part of 2 decades, has undergone a few further tweaks since that was written) & not the 2410, which is Kendricks 4x10 Bassman amp. It (2410)shares the majority of component values with many amps sold for use with harp and guitar (amps are amps, what works for one largely works for the other, there might be a handful of differing values, as there may be between 2 guitar amps, or 2 harp amps)..just .I don't feel that this is the place to go into specifics, because it is up to the builders of the amps in question to divulge their particular circuits...if they choose to.
The Texas Crude is quite different to all the other harp amps that I have seen/worked on/played, Gerald's very proud of it, it has a distinct tone, but my money would go on the 2410. The notion that a 4x10 Bassman is not voiced in a useful way for harp is obviously a little bizarre...but it's not the only way to go, or the only valid voice.
Of course the Kendrick has their proprietry transformers, cabinet, speakers, baffle board, switches, wire....basically the 2410 is made in the mould of the bassman but parts are to their spec, as is the case with most of the high end reproductions...I'm not aware of 2 builders who build exactly the same product.
Joshnat - the sweep resistor needs to be worked out through measurement. You need to measure the ohmage from the middle tab of the volume pot, to the left hand tab of the volume pot, when that pot is set to where you would normally play. Let's say for instance you get 27Kohms. Now set the pot to wherever you feel you would like to set it on stage, I wouldn't go mad, perhaps somewhere from 4-5 on the dial (with the pot set too high you cn run into differnt problems, so you don't want it going up to 11 or 12)? Measure the ohmage again, let's say you get 100kohms. You need to pick a resistor that, when placed in parallel with 100K gives you 27K overall...39K in parallel with 100K = 28K. These values are suggested for illustration only, you will HAVE to measure to be sure! To work out resistances in parallel, multiply the 2 values, then divide by the sum of the 2 values, e.g. 100x39 = 3900. 3900/139 = 28K.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2011 3:06 PM
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tmf714
474 posts
Feb 08, 2011
3:23 PM
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I was mostly refering to Geralds "voicing" terminology-the amp model is irrelevent when concerning tubes amps.
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5F6H
532 posts
Feb 08, 2011
3:38 PM
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TMF714 - You've lost me there...the TC35 is the only commercially available harp amp voiced specifically the way that it is. There a few more tricks in the TC35 that are not mentioned in Gerald's paper, which would only be apparent if you look in one.
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tmf714
475 posts
Feb 08, 2011
4:35 PM
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Let me simplify-
The 2410 is delivered with 12AX7's. It definetly was NOT a harp voiced amp-it was built as a guitar amp-but-it was the first mass produced hand wired point-to-point amp of the early 90's.
Last Edited on 3-Feb-2011 2:06 PM
Your reply-
As far as voicing goes, it is not voiced any differently as far as circuit values/frequency response are concerned (tone stack values & coupling cap values etc. are used accross the board, Kendrick blackframe speakers are as good as anything for harp), to many amps sold & used today for harp. The changes I suggested above are my preference, not exclusively for "harp" per se.
Your next post-
The different tone stack voices the amp slightly differently & tube sub suggestions will vary in effectiveness from one to the other. In the stock 2410 a higher mu tube like 5751/12aX7 in V1 will give better bass response, I would suggest a lower mu tube in V2 in preference, maybe a slightly lower mu tube in V3 (12AT7/5751). Its not voiced any differently,but then it is? The only amps voiced specifically for harp are the Texas Crude,any of Gary Onofrio's and Scott Berberians amps,the Fat Dog and the HarpGear.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2011 4:37 PM
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tmf714
476 posts
Feb 08, 2011
4:47 PM
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Sorry-I am multi-tasking. I left out the Mission 32-20 Chicago amp,and of course,my personal favorites,any of John KInders amps,the Victoria,Clark,Holland and a few others-but Garys amps have more pro endorsers and pro reviews than any other harp specific amp out there. Hands down the best harp amps out there-Sonny Jr.
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rbeetsme
383 posts
Feb 08, 2011
4:50 PM
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BBQ Bob is right about picking up an SJ4X10, built for harp, hard to beat. One on ebay for 1400.00 right now, in new condition. But...the Kendrick, in excellent condition is a bargain, you can always get a good resale price for it, probably more than you paid. It would be hard to get a guitar player to look at a harp amp, but they'll all know the Kendrick, thus, widening the field of potential buyers. Then of course, the payment plan makes it a little easier.
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tmf714
477 posts
Feb 08, 2011
5:18 PM
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Right now on ebay there are 2 Super Sonnys-without a doubt the next best thing to a real Bassman-an Avenger-Sonnys newest model,and a 6x10 HarpKing. Now through APril are the best times to buy on ebay-why? taxes are due,and people do whatever they have to to keep the IRS off their backs.
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7LimitJI
384 posts
Feb 09, 2011
12:19 AM
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I own a Kendrick 2410, it came with a NOS 12AY in v1.
What is a real Bassman ?
The Kendrick is built to the Bassman schematic.
It has one extra gain section and an effects loop that is taken completely out of the circuit when not in use.
I remove the tube, there is no need to,but I do anyway.
The Kendrick is built to better specifications than a Fender Bassman, real or imaginary.
I have built a Mojo kit Bassman. It is also built to the Fender schematic.
It is real. I can see,feel,touch and hear it !
59 Bassmen that people refer to as "real" do not sound now as when Leo designed them.
The wall voltages have gone up and the amp is now running with higher than specified voltages.
The Kendrick, if you run it at 35mA bias runs at the exact voltage that the original schematic called for.
Gerald built it that way.
Therefore it will sound more "real" than an original 59 does.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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5F6H
533 posts
Feb 09, 2011
1:45 AM
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TMF714 as usual you just want a fight, if you actually disseminate the information in this thread you might actually learn something. If you really do want to learn something then feel free to e-mail me.
At no time have I contradicted myself, you said the 2410 is not "voiced for harp", the fact is that it shares many common components with amps built for harp players, it is voiced the same as "a" (but not all) 4x10 bassman (there is not one 5F6A circuit, there are several), which are the most popular amp used for harp, when taken as a broad model.
Some of the specifics as to voicing mentioned in this thread are things that I am not prepared to go into on a public forum out of respect for the manufacturers that you mention.
The 2410 uses circuit values & broad topology that you will find in "harp" amps...because they work... they work for harp, they work for guitar. You can retube the 2410 just like you can any amp with the same topology. Not all "harp" amps are based on the 4x10 bassman, but when you see the other circuits it is often easy to see a degree of consanguinity with the amps that may have inspired them. A tube is a tube, they work the same way in just about every amp, they are subject to the same laws of physics. Final execution of the build, indeed has an effect on the outcome, I'm not saying they will all sound the same, just that the basic values & principals of operation are rarely worlds apart, out of necessity & the requirement that the damn thing must function/produce appropriate output.
It is obvious that your practical experience with the amps that you mention is limited, as you mention an amp with exactly the same circuit as the "not voiced for harp" 2410 in your list of "harp" amps (the Victoria 45410), though Mark Baier (Victoria) does offer a couple of harp-centric tweaks on request, fully switchable out of the circuit, plus as with any of the high end Bassman builds, they are open to "in keeping" variations in the circuit. It's one of the advantages to buying a hand made amp as opposed to a mass produced amp. The Victoria, Clark & Holland all come with slight variations on the circuit to each other, yet bizarrely you group them all together, whilst suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about when discussing the exact same differences?! There are essentially 2 basic voicings for a "4x10 bassman", both are used in some "harp" amps/amps used for harp, the difference between these 2 voicings is not "harp specific", it is a question of taste.
"The only amps voiced specifically for harp are the Texas Crude..." that's not even true of Kendrick amps alone, you overlook the 1210 Kendrick harp amp, the Vagabond 5W harp amp, the Black Gold Harp amp & the in development 100W harp amp...plus the hundreds of other models that Kendrick have worked on over the years in their service/mod capacity.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2011 4:03 AM
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joshnat
109 posts
Feb 09, 2011
7:30 AM
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Didn't mean to kick off an argument, but I appreciate the spirited debate...
For the record, I would love a Sonny Jr. or other harp-specific amp. And I wasn't in the market for a new amp, as I had bought recently a 50W Silvertone and haven't even gigged it yet. But as rbeetsme said, it's a good deal, the payment plan makes it possible and it's got good resale value. I've had trouble selling harp-specific amps in the past, so I'm trying to stick to amps that guitar players will recognize. Lastly, the previous owner is someone I know well, so "keeping it in the family" is appealing.
I ran the 2410 with 12AX7 in V1 and 12AU7 in V2 and V3 last night. Lots of good bottom end and good sweep on the volume control. Playing loud is easy, and the Front&Center mic is really quite good at resisting feedback. Much better on feedback than my CR or 545. I used to have a Kinder AFB, but I sold it. I didn't find the feedback rejection was worth the hit in tone I was taking.
My next challenge is to figure out how to play this thing quietly. Rolling the amp volume up and the mic volume down is one approach, and the reverse is another. I found the tone to be pretty comparable between the two approaches. To get a decent quiet volume I had to adjust one or the other volume controls (mic or amp) almost to zero and just touch it up until I get some sound. Tone is better when volume is higher but it's hard to be objective when you're standing right in front of it. I may try recording it and listening after the fact.
Also, the effects loop is essentially unusable as a proper effects loop because of the extra gain stage when it's switched on. I could try a lower gain tube there as well, but for now I just put my AquaPuss delay in front.
Thanks again everyone for the helpful comments.
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7LimitJI
385 posts
Feb 09, 2011
7:39 AM
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@Josh
Marks (5F6H)Bassman mods work well on the Kendrick.
Change the tonestack resistor, drop the pre-amp voltage and bias it cold.
Its only 2 resistors and is easily reversed if need be.
I'm very happy with mine as it sounds great at low volume too.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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