Svenharp
5 posts
Feb 03, 2011
5:59 AM
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Hey guys im a 'advanced novice' if it needs classification and have been noticing recently that there are a few parts of my playing which are holding me back. I noticed a while back that my 'oral technique' while in no way good, was far surpassing my knowledge of simple harp and even music theory. I have been trying to rectify this recently and while its a slow and sometimes laborious process I find that I do make progress. However I have now hit a complete brick wall with my playing: I can keep time or 'tempo' fine but its keeping track of which bars and therefore chords I am playing in at the time, especially with songs like 'help me' (Adams version) where there is some odd syncopation stuff. This completely stops me being able to track through a full song.
While I guess this is not an uncommon problem, I think the extent of trouble I am having with it is, possibly due to dyslexia problems with recognising sequences but no excuse really. Not looking for a 'magic fix' but are there any good methods that I can practice to rectify this so i can move on with my playing? My 'ear' is completely off too because I just dont have that talent so I cant just pick up the bars by the changes in anything other than a very simplistic song. Anyway sorry for length of text for a short question, but I do ramble.
Sven
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captainbliss
430 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:07 AM
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@Svenharp:
Try:
(a) counting the number of the bar at the head of each bar.
ONE two three four
TWO two three four
THREE two three four
FOUR two three four
Etc
(b) Getting a whiteboard or big piece of paper and sketching out the progression (I'm sure this is covered in several YouTube lessons. Adam's probably done it, sure an MBHer will be able to provide a link).
(c) Training your feet and body to keep time so that playing becomes like being able to walk with a steady rhythm whilst talking whenever you feel like it and without falling over.
Hope that's of some use!
xxx
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Svenharp
6 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:23 AM
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Thanks CB!I have tried counting out the bar numbers in the first beat of the bar and I can keep it going for maybe 20 bars or so, and I do know the progression in theory terms but its just the leap to actually applying that to real-time playing that is coming hard. Its like as soon as I have to do anything remotely difficult on the harp, I lose the count. I also do keep time with my feet and in my car I actually have a nice little piece of plastic which makes a nice little thump but, especially when improvising, I tend to get lost and go 'oh god I swear the turnaround was meant to be 2 bars go :S. Ah well I guess its just a matter of obsessive practice, I think I would get frustrated if I always had to conciously count out bar numbers in my head, guess it becomes natural after a long enough time (probably a good few decades in my case haha).
Thanks anywho CB il just keep counting obsessively :)
Sven
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captainbliss
431 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:26 AM
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@Svenharp:
/I can keep it going for maybe 20 bars or so/
You're going back to "ONE" when the progression restarts, right?
xxx
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eharp
1138 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:35 AM
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i find rocking helps keep me on track.
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Ostefondue
4 posts
Feb 03, 2011
7:11 AM
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For the twelve bar blues, a free color-coded template is available for download here:
www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/2722580-Documents-eBooks-Music-Tutorials
This goes along with Adams three YouTube Videos Gussow.018, .019 and .020 where he, through various sound examples teaches you how to count the twelve bar blues. Before you know it, you'll be feeling it, and you'll just know what'll come next :).
Gussow.018 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbLTZu5alY&feature=related
I can also recommend the "beginning harmony", two lessons that'll teach you how to start improvising better.
Beginning harmony 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqlJzca0b-8
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groyster1
815 posts
Feb 03, 2011
7:29 AM
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@captainbliss
the method you described is what I use to keep time-it is very effective
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bluemoose
464 posts
Feb 03, 2011
10:02 AM
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check the MBH webbrain under topics "12 Bar Blues"
MBH 12 Bar Blues
and "Counting"
MBH Counting
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MBH Webbrain-a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain-Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 3:16 PM
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Svenharp
7 posts
Feb 03, 2011
12:09 PM
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@Captainbliss. Ye ofc going back to one :P. its just I tend to lose track of which bar im in in about the 8th or 9th bar of the second 12set for some reason. @Ostefondue I have watched these and have adams lesson on it too, which really helped but I understand this fairly well, its not the actual THEORY of the progression that is problematic for me. Its working it practically into my playing, for example i KNOW the changes I have to make when changing to the 9th bar, its just that when I am actually playing, I concentrate on the actual physical movements I have to make and tend to 'lose' how i can signify those changes there and then on the spot. Guess its just a weird thing I have, guess just gota practice with simpler licks on keeping exactly which beat of which bar I am in at any one time, then move on. At the moment I tend to use muscle memory to keep time, and when I actually use a metronome or listen back to a recording etc, it is in time, I just dont know where I actually am, at the time :/. Ah well the old adage practice, practice, practice comes into play. Thanks though guys!
Sven
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Kingley
1438 posts
Feb 03, 2011
12:41 PM
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I'd say use your ear to hear the chord changes and then if you get lost during the structure in for example a 12 bar blues, just listen for the turnaround.
Captainbliss, gives you some great solid advice which I'd recommend you heed. Although I'd have to disagree with him on option "b".
Personally I think writing it down is the worst thing you could do as you can then become reliant on that piece of paper. That kind of musical security crutch can be a hard habit to break. Far better to spend time training your ears in my opinion.
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Shredder
231 posts
Feb 03, 2011
2:48 PM
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@7harp, yeah it's easy to get lost some times but in my case. If I know the song and most of the lyrics I know where I'm at in the song. So learn the song to be able to play along effectively. 2ndly like was mentioned before, you have to feel the groove and go with it but, if you don't know the groove you can't feel it. Bottom line in my opinion, you have to know your material and the music will flow the numbers are not even a part of the equasion when I'm playing.
Mike
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7LimitJI
378 posts
Feb 03, 2011
2:52 PM
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I've played completely by ear for years.
Trouble is you cannot communicate with other musicians.
Most bassists and guitarists talk about the 1, the 4 and the 5
Not bars, but chords.
As you have suggested play simply,it will come,but you have to crawl before you can walk before you can run.
If make the effort to learn this now it will help you as you advance.
I had to learn all the basics again to lead a band.
Learn where the root notes of each chord change is.
They can be used to start or resolve licks.
Another way is to think of the changes as positions on the harp.
The 1 chord would be 2nd position.
The 4 chord would be 1st pos
The 5 chord would be 3rd.
Another good way to train you're ear better is learn a favourite harp instrumental note for note.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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hvyj
1216 posts
Feb 03, 2011
3:28 PM
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You know, i've always been able to FEEL when each chord change comes. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but if you listen ACTIVELY to a lot of music in your spare time and you RELAX and listen when you are playing, it's really not that hard. DON'T OVER THINK IT. Tapping your foot or otherwise moving in time with the rhythm tends to help
Here's a little tip: when you are playing live it's more important to cop the groove than it is to get every note correct. Relax and go with the flow and you should start to hear the changes as they come. Then you work on hitting the right notes over each change and don't obsess over it when you screw up. Get into the flow of the tune and worry about note selection after you are comfortable copping the groove. You don't need to do both at once as you are learning.
BTW, "Help Me" is NOT an easy tune even for experienced players, so if you are having a hard time with it, don't be too hard on yourself.
RELAX! HEAR THE FLOW and you will start to anticipate each change as it comes. If you get lost lay out and wait to start playing when "one" comes around again or when you re-orient yourself (whichever comes first). Don't be afraid to lay out and let the changes happen around you and try to RELAX until you figure out where you are. You don't have to be playing in every measure to make music, so don't try to force fit anything -- play what you feel. If you don't feel it, relax and lay out, wait until you do and things should start to come more naturally.
Not everyone has a natural sense of meter, so my suggestions may not work for you but it won't hurt to try them--even if they don't help you improve, they won't hurt your playing, either.
Some jazz tunes require even very experienced players to count. But most blues is gut level stuff capable of being learned by feel. Get the feel down first and working on the finer points of note selection gets easier. Work on HEARING the changes first,(with or without playing) then worry about note selection.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 3:44 PM
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arzajac
451 posts
Feb 03, 2011
4:26 PM
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Listen to some jazzy blues, like Count Bassie or even Charles Brown. They frequently use wild, jazzy changes including frequent use of diminished chords to transition through the twelve bars.
But, if you accompany any of those recordings with your harp, you can still follow and sound appropriate using the I-IV-V chord structure.
If you can get through a few songs, you may end up with a better ear and be able to "feel" the changes as hvyj calls it.
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Baker
104 posts
Feb 04, 2011
3:46 AM
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Try playing very simply over the changes at first, leaving enough room for you to be listening/concentrating on the changes rather then what you are playing.
You could also try learning the lyrics to a song, it could only be one verse. Try singing the verse in your head while playing, this should help keep you locked into the pattern.
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Milsson
8 posts
Feb 04, 2011
5:54 AM
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What i do and what i´ve done is listen to music. Put a cd in on your way home from work and scat.. I scat and rock my head like crazy while driving. Sometimes i can se people stairing at the red lights. If you do this long enough you will "feel" what chord is coming upp next. Singing to tracks are the best but i can only remeber bits of songs so i scat instead. :)
All this reading on forums makes people forget that music is simply feelings. It´s not about knowing how to count,read,jump,run or having a sixth sense. Though knowing the "usual/right" way to make music can help if you wish to have someone listen to you.
I´m NOT a pro musician but that´s just the way i look upon music.
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captainbliss
434 posts
Feb 04, 2011
7:46 AM
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@Baker:
/You could also try learning the lyrics to a song, it could only be one verse. Try singing the verse in your head while playing, this should help keep you locked into the pattern./
A excellent idea!
@Kingley:
/Personally I think writing it down is the worst thing you could do as you can then become reliant on that piece of paper. That kind of musical security crutch can be a hard habit to break. Far better to spend time training your ears in my opinion./
I hear where you're coming from and agree wholeheartedly on two counts: firstly, yes, becoming reliant on having that piece of paper in front of you is a *terrible* idea; secondly, there is no subsitute for ear training.
I think, however, that what's going in the mind when making music is multi-sensory and, as such, using every sense available to develop deep, internalised understanding (conscious or unconscious) mightn't be such a bad idea. Actually, if a player can call a visual image to mind (much in the same way Howard Levy - as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong - closes his eyes and "sees" a piano keyboard when playing harmonica) I suspect this will help - rather than hinder - that player make muic.
Hope that makes some kind of sense?
EDIT: @bluemoose:
Your webbrain looks awesome! I look forward to exploring it when time allows...
xxx
EDITED for clarity
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 8:00 AM
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Andy Ley
79 posts
Feb 04, 2011
8:16 AM
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@Svenharp: If it's the actual memorising of the chord progression that you're struggling with I know a technique that may help. It's a bit long winded to go into here but If you are finding you lose track of the actual chord that is coming next it should help cement this in. Give me a shout and I'll post something up for you if this is the case.
If on the other hand you are saying that you know this already, but once you start playing you lose track, it's a capacity issue and you are correct: Practicing this will eventualy help you to overcome it.
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Baker
105 posts
Feb 04, 2011
8:18 AM
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@ Captinbiss
I use this approach quite a lot, particularly when sitting in on a song I don't know, especially songs which are not in standard 12 bar format and songs which are not blues.
I find internalising the melody not only helps me keep track of where I am in the progression, but also when taking a solo it kind of acts as a guide to improvise against. Gives a sense of the structure of the song and hopefully leads to a more musical improvisation.
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 8:19 AM
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DesertDog
33 posts
Feb 04, 2011
1:44 PM
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@Svenharp – I’ve had similar problems, so I was really interested in your thread. Personally, I think counting is for the birds and I agree with those that say you really need to feel the chord changes. I’ve found if I really know the head then I can improvise -- even over some funky changes.
In “Effortless Mastery,” Kenny Werner said, you have to be able to play without thinking – you need to play like you brush your teeth. He also suggests breaking any problem down to its smallest part and start slow. Only increase the size or speed when you can play effortlessly. So for example if I want to work on the I-IV chord transition I’ll get a jam track and use the amazing slow downer to isolate that transition – x bars before and x bars after (x is usually 2, but depends on the riff I’m practicing). Then I’ll set it on repeat mode, the appropriate speed and key and just practice playing over that. Once the riff is effortless, I’ll start really listening to the other instruments. What’s the drummer doing? What’s the bass player doing? Can I hear the difference between the two chords?
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