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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
How do you decide?
How do you decide?
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AW
62 posts
Feb 02, 2011
7:27 AM
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So I'm going to be playing with some noncomputer players soon and the "music" usually comes as lyrics with chord letters written above.
Most of the songs are ones I've heard, but I'm curious how you all decide which harp to use.
For example, I'll look down at the sheet and see, Brown-Eyed Girl, the lyrics and a series of chord letters.
Do you just go the first chord, decide first or second position and wing it?
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OzarkRich
375 posts
Feb 02, 2011
8:10 AM
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If it's not blues then the first chord is usually, but not always, the key of the song. I have to know the key of the song and then run through the song at least once to figure out which position is easiest/sounds best.
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Ozark Rich
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honeydawg
30 posts
Feb 02, 2011
8:17 AM
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Maybe also run through the melody, especially if it's a familiar one, on a couple different harps, to try different positions. It may take a little while to settle on one, but at the same time you develop an ear for what's possible in different positions.
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sorin
248 posts
Feb 02, 2011
8:26 AM
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AW , if it is not blues , the last chord has a bigger chance to be the key of the song . Post a couple of chord progressions , and lets try to figure it out .
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Free video harp tabs and backing tracks
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HarpNinja
1056 posts
Feb 02, 2011
8:29 AM
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I ask the guitar player. A lot of times they don't know. Then I ask what scale they are using for their leads. I usually can pick things up by ear, but that doesn't help here.
For BEG, I'd use a C harp if I was going to play harp on that tune...which I usually don't although I can play the intro riff.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/23/11
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chromaticblues
556 posts
Feb 02, 2011
9:34 AM
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I ask what the chord progression is. Then I figure out what harp that would work on easiest.
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mr_so&so
401 posts
Feb 02, 2011
9:52 AM
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+1 for Sorin's point. Most songs end by resolving to the root chord (and lots of songs start on the V chord).
And +1 for HarpNinja's suggestion about asking for, or figuring out, the scale used in the melody. The scale you need to play from is probably the biggest factor in choosing a position to play (which then tells you which harp key to use for a song in a given key). Soooo simple;) Check out the many threads in the forum archive about the Circle of Fifths if you don't know about harp keys and positions and such.
You can get by pretty well if you can play major and minor pentatonic scales, as MBH member hvyj tells us. Check his profile info for good positions to play those in.
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Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 9:58 AM
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dougharps
41 posts
Feb 02, 2011
10:39 AM
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I usually play BEG in 2nd position, comping some octaves and soloing if the band offers a solo. You could play it in other positions, but this is what I like to do.
Here is an approach to finding the key of a song:
For most Major keyed rock, pop, blues, or country songs there are only 3 or 4 chords used in the song. Like all rules, there are exceptions, but this is a good rule of thumb.
I would suggest that you ask what key they believe they play the song in, and then try the harp (off mic) that would be in cross (they say G, you play a C in 2nd) which is the IV chord or going counter clockwise one key on the Circle of Fifths.
If they have the key wrong, and you are trying to play it in 2nd, see if it sounds like the notes fit if you were playing it in 1st position, and either play it there or go to the next counter clockwise key on the Circle of Fifths, F in this case, to play it in 2nd.
If it sounds like you are close to being able to play it, but are getting a "minor" type flatted note when you play, you could be playing it in 3rd position, and you could then try the G harp in 2nd position to play in 2nd position in D (going clockwise on the Circle of Fifths). Do this trial and error OFF MIC!
I get invited to sit in a lot, especially when I am going out more to hear other bands when I am not gigging in a band, and guitarists sometimes name the key center incorrectly. Usually the key they name will be one of the chords in the song, unless the song has some really odd changes or an introduction in a different key, so you don't have to try every key of your harps to find the key of song, just the ones related to the key you were told.
If you ever are going to try to play in a situation without being given any clue as to the key, it helps to be able to read some guitar chords. Of course, they could be tuned down a half or whole step, so always try it off mic, first. You can also take a C harp and try to find a note that fits the I chord of the song, then try a different harp.
I believe that it is better to LOOK clueless while you look through your harps for a key of harp and position that fits the song, than to SOUND clueless by playing in the wrong key on mic, and messing up the song. We are supposed to add to the song, not detract from it.
I believe that sometimes it is better to not play at all on a song than to be totally in the wrong key. You need to be using a scale that you can make work with the song.
On the other hand, in a jam situation, it doesn't hurt to take some risks when soling once you have a harp that can work with that song. You should not get totally hung up on fear of hitting a "wrong" note. You may learn some new approaches to soloing on songs this way!
Remember: If you make an error once, then repeat it a couple times deliberately, you are just improvising "out there." Of course you had better bring it back from "out there." ;>)
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Doug S.
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HarpNinja
1057 posts
Feb 02, 2011
10:52 AM
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I am pretty sure in my rock coverband and the original blues band I am currently in, I can play every single song with just harps in the key of C, G, D, A, F, and Bb (one song with a Db harp too, I guess). That's well over 60 tunes between the two bands.
In my previous band, I used all 12 keys in a three set show.
Point being, Doug is right. Almost every tune is going to be in a similar key with a similar diatonic progression. I bet half my cover band songs are in G.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/23/11
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Jim Rumbaugh
394 posts
Feb 02, 2011
10:58 AM
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+2 sorin
+2 harpninja
If you are "told" what key, don't be afraid to ask."major or minor".
If it is a major key,
I try 2nd position with the major pentatonic scale. If the 5 draw sounds good, I may switch to the blues scale.
If it is minor key
I start in 3rd position with a 4 draw
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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hvyj
1205 posts
Feb 02, 2011
11:06 AM
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If it's minor, I always want to know what kind of minor. If Dorian minor I'll usually use 3rd position. If natural minor, I'll use 5th or 4th position.
The difference is that the scale and IV chord of Dorian minor have a major 6th. The scale and IV chord of natural minor have a flat 6th.
You CAN play natural minor in 3rd position, but you've got to be careful not to hit a major 6th since it will sound REALLY BAD.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 11:20 AM
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dougharps
42 posts
Feb 02, 2011
11:48 AM
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@harpninja
You are right about not usually needing so many keys of harps in normal playing. That is one reason why we wear out certain keys of harp faster than others. The guitar players that tune down their guitars are the main reason you need all the keys of harp.
[Edit: harpninja, I know that you know this stuff and I did not intend it to sound as though I was informing you of this. I read your posts and I heard you play when I was at SPAH. I am agreeing with you, then rambling on for the general reader. I'm sure no one has noticed, but I do run on at times.]
In regular guitar tunings, if you play a lot of loud, fast rock or blues songs on your C and D and A harps, and use few other keys, those are the keys likely to go flat on certain notes first. While I don't go through harps like I used to, and they now last much longer, the D harp is usually the one I wear out most often.
Regarding minor songs, I agree with Jim Rumbaugh to not be afraid to ask about major or minor, and I agree with hvyj about the choices as to which position for which type of minor key. In his book Winslow Yerxa refers to notes such as the major 6th in 3rd position as "avoid notes".
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Doug S.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 1:55 PM
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Barry C.
156 posts
Feb 02, 2011
12:26 PM
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bass players always know - so buy beers for your bassman - works great in most bands!
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~Banned in Boston!
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hvyj
1208 posts
Feb 02, 2011
1:22 PM
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@Barry C.: Bass players don't always play a different bass line if the key is minor.
@dougharps: If you play in positions other than 1st, 2d and 3rd, you wind up using harps you might not otherwise use as often. For example, in 5th position: C natural minor=Ab harp F natural minor=Db harp G natural minor=Eb Harp. In 4th position C natural minor=Eb harp G natural minor=Bb harp F natural minor=Ab harp.
Major 6 is not an avoid note if the tune is in Dorian minor. But it is an avoid note if the key is natural minor.
In choosing positions, I try to pick a harp that gives me a mode that has most of the notes I will need to play the particular tune. If i don't know, I find it useful to ask if the tune has a major 7th or a flat 7th as that not only helps me select position, but also what scale to use.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 1:28 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
396 posts
Feb 02, 2011
2:45 PM
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confession from a guy that has played bass 40 years.
1) the first 2 years I played bass, I did not know the difference between major and minor.
2) I still don't know when a tune is a Natural, Dorian, Melodic, or Harmonic minor when I play bass (or harp)
3) I have no plans to learn the difference in the near future.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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hvyj
1209 posts
Feb 02, 2011
3:20 PM
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@JimRunbaugh: unless the bass player is playing thirds (which most don't) major or minor is irrelevant to what he is doing.
Harmonic minor is flat third flat sixth major seventh and is playable in 4th position by bending D6 a half step and D3 a step and a half to get the major seventh.
Jazz melodic minor is flat third, major sixth and major seventh. I suppose this could be played in third or twelfth position with appropriate bends but I've never tried it.
There's quite a bit of rock and blues material in natural minor keys ("All Along the Watchtower" "Little Wing" "St James Infirmary" to name a few) which sound great on harp and are fun to play, but relatively few harp players handle natural minor keys consistently well. Being able to has gotten me gigs.
Playing natural minor blues in fifth position is actually pretty easy and worth learning how to do. If you can play a major pentatonic scale in second position, you have the skill set you need to play fifth position since the minor pentatonic scale in fifth position is the same breath pattern. You just have to be careful about what else you bend, and try to stay away from D5 and D9. Otherwise, it's actually pretty hard to hit a bad note.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 3:22 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
397 posts
Feb 02, 2011
8:19 PM
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@hvyj, though I have great respect for you and have learned many things from you, I must say I disagree with some of your post above. You said."There's quite a bit of rock and blues material in natural minor keys ("All Along the Watchtower" "Little Wing" "St James Infirmary" to name a few)" and your previous post would lead one to assume you should play 5th position to get that natural minor.
I fear you may be making this more dificult than it needs to be.
I have always played St James in 3rd. So I went and tried Watchtower and Little wing in 3rd. Though I have never played them on harp before this night, I was VERY comfortable in 3rd position. I then tried 5th position. It too is an easy play, BUT I felt it had fewer notes to offer than 3rd. In 3rd I can play the 2nd and 9th scale tones, but not in 5th. I found that adding 6th scale tone in 5th position for the loss of the 2nd was like trading a knight for a pawn in chess.
Unless there is a specific melody line that demands the natural minor scale, I go 3rd position.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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hvyj
1211 posts
Feb 03, 2011
4:29 AM
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@Jim Rumbaugh: Well, a lot of harp players use 3rd for all minors. You CAN get major 2nd/9th in fifth position by bending (D2* 9B*) although, for me, as a practical matter, it makes getting the 9th a little awkward since it's a blow bend and I'm not an accomplished blow bender (although i can do it). But hitting the major 2nd at D2* is not tough at all and certainly not as difficult as the draw bends involved with playing the low register in third position.
Personally, I find third awkward for playing natural minor since one must studiously avoid the major 6th because if you hit it it's a real clam. Btw, i think the flat 6th is an important note to hit playing "Watchtower." Maybe not so important for "St, James" and "Little Wing," though. And stylistically, i tend not to play 9ths as much playing minor key material. Never have--not really sure why. I tend to phrase differently when i play minor. Not saying that's necessarily better--I just do.
If I'm playing a natural minor tune that makes liberal use of the 2nd in the melody, I'll generally play fourth position.
I can get around in third just fine, but I feel inhibited playing third for natural minor since I've got to be so careful to avoid major 6th. I also happen to like the feel of playing in fifth. i use fifth quite a bit. i can comfortably play all sorts of stuff in fifth that I could never play on a diatonic before I learned fifth.
But, there's strengths and weaknesses to every position, so whatever you like and are comfortable with is fine if it works. It's certainly acceptable to disagree about position selection, especially after actually trying the different positions involved.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 4:31 AM
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captainbliss
429 posts
Feb 03, 2011
5:46 AM
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@AW:
/I'm curious how you all decide which harp to use./
In order of importance (although not necesarily the order in which I'll work on it):
1. How can I best serve the song?
2. Am I doing melody / percussion / texture / solo / impact? More than one of these in different parts of the song? Would I be better off singing a harmony / doubling the vocal / clapping my hands / shaking some shakers / jumping around / having a great time / bringing some positive energy to proceedings?
3. What harmonica(s) - if any - am I going to use?
With 1. being far and away the most important (it's so easy to get so caught up in playing the harmonica that one forgets that, compared to the groove and vocals, any harmonica part is largely inconsequential, provided it doesn't get in the way...)
xxx
EDITED for spelling
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2011 6:27 AM
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AW
63 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:18 AM
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Thanks for all your replies. It's been a great conversation to follow.
@HarpNinja I read your post: "For BEG, I'd use a C harp if I was going to play harp on that tune"
and I thought you were talking about a generic song with B, E, and G chords at first. Man, was I confused until I realized you meant Brown-Eyed Girl!
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hvyj
1212 posts
Feb 03, 2011
8:26 AM
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"it's so easy to get so caught up in playing the harmonica that one forgets that, compared to the groove and vocals, any harmonica part is largely inconsequential, provided it doesn't get in the way..."
ABSOLUTE TRUTH and so important. A lot of harp players get so focused on harp centric considerations (whether musical or concerning amplification) that they lose perspective on the overall group sound. Ensemble music is synergy if it's done right--the whole exceeds the sum of the parts and no one part is as important as the overall effect.
A band leader i work with who has a Masters Degree in Music put it somewhat more crudely and bluntly by saying, "If you're not careful, harp can become a real pain in the ass to listen to." Good advice, I think, and an admonition i try to keep in mind when paying in a group context (which, actually, is pretty much the only kind of playing I do except for practicing).
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HarpNinja
1065 posts
Feb 03, 2011
8:32 AM
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Sorry, AW! I've seen it abbreviated so many times, I don't even think about spelling it out all the time. I play that song every once in a while, but I never play harp on it.
In general, I try not to play harp on every song, even with my own band. On a lot of tunes, I might play some organ or horn sounding parts, but in general, I never comp like a harp player. I use effects pretty liberally for that too.
We don't have a keyboard player, so there is a lot of space to help support guitar leads, but even then, I am hit or miss on if I play something or not. If I were to be a side man in a cover band, I would try to sing back-up, sing lead on a few tunes, and see if I could play some simple percussion like a tambourine when appropriate. Being flexible is a better sell and a better sound. Having some gear, like a PA for the band to use, also helps.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
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hvyj
1214 posts
Feb 03, 2011
10:45 AM
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Going back to my ramblings about fifth position, another reason i like it is because it's flexible. You can also use it for Dorian minor by bending 4 draw and/or 1 draw to get the major 6th if you want to. Just a further thought.
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