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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
? I keep loosing the 4& 5 hole on an A harp
? I keep loosing the 4& 5 hole on an A harp
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Shredder
225 posts
Jan 30, 2011
6:03 PM
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Am I the only one that has this problem. It seems like the A & D harps are the worst about going bad for me. I played a gig this past Friday and lost the 5 draw and blow on my A harp? That's weird, I usually just loose the draw reed. I was working the 3rd position hard then went into the next song in 2nd position and noticed the dead reeds. Chunk that one and grab the spair. The crowd got a laugh when I anounced "another one bites the dust".
What's ya"lls most killed key of harps.
And yeah, I blow to hard, I just can't help it.They don't call me the Shredder for nothing!
Mike
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LittleJoeSamson
473 posts
Jan 30, 2011
6:44 PM
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I keep telling friends and students to work in a new harp gradually to set the reeds. This means playing just like breathing at first for about a month. The other method is to do series of full pulls....the 4-hole amateur method. This puts less stress on individual reeds, and cuts on the time involved. I sometimes think this is one of the reasons why older harps maintain their integrity. The players were doing the 4-hole monkey grinder style.
Course, the older "bell-bronze" reeds also help.
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Greg Heumann
1023 posts
Jan 30, 2011
7:10 PM
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This seems to happen to every player as they are developing bend strength. Like many others I used to go through a lot of harps (and it was almost always the 4 or 5, usually the 5 hole.) One day you'll wake up and realize this stopped happening to you. It isn't the harp's fault. It is because a) you're straining too hard and b) these holes don't bend as far as the 2 and 3 you're loving so much. The 4 hole can only bend 1/2 step, the 5 hole can only bend 1/4 step - not even a real note. But until your brain/muscle connections have learned not to try to bend these notes further than they go, and to bend with less effort in general, you'll probably blow more of these reeds out.
Consciousness helps, so I hope this message helps. Nobody ever told me the above - I figured it out much later, AFTER I stopped blowing out reeds.
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jbone
483 posts
Jan 30, 2011
8:18 PM
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what Greg said. it just began to dawn on me at some point that an amp with enough balls to cut through, coupled with plenty of tricks in my bag, meant that i didn't need to haul that draw 4 or 5 so far down all the time, and my harps began lasting longer. it's about finesse as well. i'm not saying don't bend, just be aware of how hard you bend. and realize it isn't necessary once you find some other cool stuff to do in place of overdoing that bend.
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hvyj
1196 posts
Jan 31, 2011
2:47 AM
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Producing all air pressure/air flow from the diaphragm with an open throat, deep embouchure and a relaxed jaw puts a whole lot less stress on the reeds than if you create air pressure with the mouth and lips. It's also better for your tone.
That, and as Greg said, bending to pitch instead of slamming to the "floor" of the bend makes a big difference. The target pitch for the lowest available draw bend in each hole is quite a bit above the "floor" or the lowest extent to which you can bend down.
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The Gloth
566 posts
Jan 31, 2011
4:03 AM
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Same problem here with 4 and 5 draw. Now that Greg explained why, I hope my brain will work it out...
Also, I decided to buy a good vintage bullet and vintage amp (gonna be a Masco or something that kind ; I found a great guy in Belgium who rehabilits those and sells them), so I'll have more control on my volume and hopefully break less harps...
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ncpacemaker
268 posts
Jan 31, 2011
5:17 AM
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That makes sense. The first harp I got lasted probably 20 years and still played fine. I didn't know how to bend notes.
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Shredder
226 posts
Jan 31, 2011
7:07 AM
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I fully under stand the fact of over stressing the bends. I also under stand the reeds of an A harp are longer. I don't have this problem with the rest of the harps I use with my bands set list. I use these harps thru the sets and don't have to many failures F,g,Bb,E,Eb,C and a hiG. It's the A that fails the most followed by the D. @liljoe, I wish I had the luxery of taking a month to break in a harp but I play in 3 bands and don't have the time. @ Greg Iv'e been working on taking it easier on the 4/5 but it seems like the other harps would fail also if I'm doing the same to them. The mic you moded for me should deliver today, maybe that will help by allowing me to hear better what I'm doing instead of wrestling with a stock SM57.
Mike
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Miles Dewar
674 posts
Jan 31, 2011
7:30 AM
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Don't worry about it. Just try to correct it through time.
I'm sure James Cotton blew or choked out many reeds when he was learning. He pulls them out now......
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
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The Gloth
567 posts
Jan 31, 2011
7:58 AM
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Adam said somewhere he still blew out a number of harps a year, I wonder if he also blows mainly 4 and 5 draw and more often A harps...
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barbequebob
1515 posts
Jan 31, 2011
8:58 AM
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If you're losing both the blow and draw reed on the 5 hole, it's BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that you're playing far too hard and bending WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past the floor of the bend. Remember, the highest note of the hole bends down in 1/2 step increments to within 1/2 step of the lowest note in the hole.
In hole 5, in a key of A diatonic, the highest note is the draw, being a D natural and the lowest is the blow note, which is a C#. There is exactly 1/2 step between those two and the most they can be bent is 1/4 step, meaning that all you're doing is playing a D that's gonna be 50 cents flat, meaning WAAAAAAAAY out of tune.
One thing you need to learn is where the bends as well as the scales, and see it visually on a keyboard and a site good for that is a freebie site http://www.musictheory.net. What you're doing is almost ridiculously common with many harp players, ESPECIALLY newbie and many intermeditate players because what you;re trying to do is get a note that physically is NOT there to get at all.
Bending is to get a note that the harp was not originally designed to produce, BUT it has to be within the parameters I mentioned above and between 5 blow and draw, you DO NOT have the necessary amount of 1/2 steps to get any other notes inbetween because there is ONLY 1/2 step between the blow and the draw note.
Obviously, you are also using the A and the D more than the other keys, which is another reason.
Another thing to remember is that the reeds work together as a PAIR when bending, meaning that when you do a draw bend, it's actually the BLOW reed doing the bending and when doing a blow bend, it's the draw reed doing the bending.
In D's, E's, and D harps, they nearly all short slot reeds, so it is not uncommon to lose 4 blow when doing draw bends because on higher pitched reeds, the stress from the way you're playing is HUGE and playing the way you do forms microscopic cracks AKA stress fractures on the reeds, and once that happens, the reed can;t heal itself, and all it will do is go out of tune, dropping in pitch and in a worst case scenerio, it will break apart and you may swallow it.
OPbviously, I'm repeating what Greg has said, and he has it absolutely 100% correct and what you're doing is flat out bad playing technique.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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ridge
175 posts
Jan 31, 2011
10:39 AM
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I'll say I've probably been through more D harps than anything else.
I have a Special 20 in A that just won't quit. I've been playing it for 4 or 5 years now. I don't play in bands; If I did, I'm sure I'd go though more harps.
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Shredder
227 posts
Jan 31, 2011
11:40 AM
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OK, @ BBQB I knew what you would say and I agree I do work the reeds to hard. But to maybe rephrase the question and add more of a twist to it.
Let me ask this,how many harps does Darrell Mansfield go thru in a years time? The reason I ask this is his style of playing is what I'm doing with my Rock & Blues band, Or how often does John Popper blow out a harp or Jason Ricci? Just thought it would be informative to see who is abusing harps besides me:)
Mike
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2011 11:42 AM
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barbequebob
1516 posts
Feb 01, 2011
7:52 AM
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IF you're into playing a faster style in terms of playing speed, you have to use much less breath force in order to make it work and if you play phrases that uses a ton of breath shifts (quickly alternating blow and draw breaths), you physically won't be able to do it and will quickly get winded (fastest player I ever heard was acountry player named Mike Caldwell) and if you use less breath force, learn better acoustic tone, get REAL breath control happening and learn to play resonantly, with good technique, you should get a least a year or more out of each of your harps.
I personally don't know how many Darrell Mansfield or Popper go thru and you'll need to ask them personally on that one.
All reeds will eventually die due to metal fatigue, but why make that come much faster than it needs to be. What you should also learn to do is let the rig do the "heavy lifting" rather than you personally and physically. Once you learn that, plus what I mentioned above, everything about your playing will improve quite a bit and you'll blow out harps far less.
Another thing I recommend to EVERY harp player is to get breathing lessons from a reputable vocal coach because before they teach vocals to anyone, they check your breathing and most people often don't breathe correctly in order to get the best possible vocal tone, resonance, and projection and everything they teach you also applies to the harmonica as well and one of the things they stress is to play/sing 100% physically relaxed so that your air passages are fully wide open and you can project far better with the LEAST amount of air and you learn not to waste so much breath all the time. I did it and never regretted it. You can learn a lot from it and it will improve your overall playing tremendously.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
1050 posts
Feb 01, 2011
8:29 AM
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@Shredder,
Obviously I am speculating here, but I do know Popper tends to go through harps quickly...this isn't necessarily because they break, but I've been to several BT concerts and he is very liberal in throwing them to audience members. After one show, I remember him throwing out 4-5. I also remember a roadie replacing harps between sets - a whole new set.
I think, and I am just guessing, that he uses new harps almost every night. Having seen him play while standing right next to him, watching him on Youtube, and trying to cop some of his moves, I wouldn't think he plays all that hard compared to other players.
Ricci plays customs, some self-made, and I am certain there are mods done to help reed life. Not all customs are treated like that, but based off of what customizers he has used, I'd imagine they go to some length to keep them from going out.
There is a difference between flattening reeds and cracking reeds. All reeds will eventually die, but if you are continually flattening reeds quickly, you have to be playing too hard! If you are breaking reeds, that's double true.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/23/11
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chromaticblues
551 posts
Feb 01, 2011
9:24 AM
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@ Shredder Like Greg said most people go thru the same thing. Its not a big deal! I had problems with harps going bad while playing live. Its because the music is so loud and you can't hear yourself so you play harder. Like BqBob said get a bigger amp! If you have harps where you can get at the reeds. Take it apart, straighten out the reeds and set the gapps to where it plays fine for you when your playing by yourself. Then you have to learn how to play that way in front of people. Out of all the harps I customized for myself I've had the draw two on a "C" harp go flat in the last two years. I don't play easy, but I try not to ruin my harps at the same time. I can remember hearing/reading about people being able to make thier harps last a long time and I thought
"Who Cares"! Well I guess I do now. If you harps last a year or more and you use them every day. Your atleast not doing something wrong and your saving money. For me it was learning how to set the reeds and getting use to that. Youe harps have to be consistant for you or anyone to get consistant with your breath control.
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Shredder
228 posts
Feb 01, 2011
10:06 AM
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Hey guy's thanks for the replys. I fully under stand the issue of my breath force, and have been really working on control when playing with my Rock /Blues band. I was practicing last night and decided I needed to turn my amp volume up"as suggested" some so I could better hear my self. I just need to concentrate on playing softer when I'm comping and not over power the singer and guitar. I also thought about harp set up. I work on my on harps, tuning, gapping, cover plates etc. I am starting to lean towards closing the gapps some and maybe embosing so the harp will respond to a softer attack as Bob suggested and as Ninja mentioned. I have never broken a reed, just fatigued it to the point I couldn't retune it. Most of my harps last for a year or more. When I play with the country band I never loose harps it's just that Damm Rock & Roll and the energy the band produces. Thanks for the good dicussion and suggestions. @ Bob , I'll look into a voice coach also.
Mike
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