7LimitJI
365 posts
Jan 28, 2011
2:59 AM
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In the "Great Tone" thread the old tongue block vs lip and which is better came up again.
Here is a wee challenge for you.
I play the same boogie lick TB but not slapped, then I play it TB with slaps.
Which sounds better, and can you equal or better it by lipping only??
Go on, give it a try and put your money where your mouth is!!! ;O)
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Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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zipperhead16
19 posts
Jan 28, 2011
3:39 AM
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Well I'll get the fight started. Slap.
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Philippe
69 posts
Jan 28, 2011
4:31 AM
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I started LP but the sound that captured me about the harp was the tongue slapping (which I now do).
I always find that harp with too little tongue slapping sounds like 'generic' harp playing.
Slaps all the way!
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waltertore
982 posts
Jan 28, 2011
5:01 AM
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I prefer the finding your own sound approach to life and use both as well as other unpopular sounds. For me, to use just one all the time would be no fun because they both offer certain things the other doesn't. I say use whatever turns you on and let your passion take over and blind you to what the Jones do. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 5:36 AM
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stones
19 posts
Jan 28, 2011
6:59 AM
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I agree with Waltertore use what ever you want sticking to just one type of sound or style gets real boring real fast. I like the sound of the slap, but the no slap has it's place too. and then so does lipping, on country songs I do mostly lipping, on some blues song you just have to Tb with the slaps, and others you cannot because it just wont work?? so my opinion is do what needs to be done and have all these neat little tricks in your pocket and ready to use at a moments notice...
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Littoral
264 posts
Jan 28, 2011
8:42 AM
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The OP said nothing about ONLY one technique so OF COURSE, do what you like. That's not the point.
The challenge posted is to play the same lines LP that sounds as good as the posted TB.
So...?
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waltertore
985 posts
Jan 28, 2011
8:58 AM
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he asked which sounds better and can you do it without TB. I find both examples the same because it is comparing apples and oranges. It depends on what context you use them in ( I am assuming one can do both). Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 8:59 AM
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Greyowlphotoart
397 posts
Jan 28, 2011
9:00 AM
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@ 7LimitJl 'Go on, give it a try and put your money where your mouth is!!! ;O)'
Tried it, but the damn coins got in the way, can I have another go without the loose change? ;)
 Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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GermanHarpist
1954 posts
Jan 28, 2011
9:14 AM
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Your tone is more solid when you're slapping.
Which has little to do with the slaps but the missing self confidence when playing without slaps (just guessing here to make my point, hehe, sorry :).
Doesn't that expose the real weakness of TB? That you really have to slap to make it sound good?
Just a (deliberately provoking) thought.
DISCLAIMER: I don't TB (although I would like to be able to). But I don't play blues either, but mostly eastern jazz and classical stuff. And I ob all the time.
I don't know how well slapping would fit in these contexts?
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 9:18 AM
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chromaticblues
538 posts
Jan 28, 2011
9:37 AM
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I usually don't like this discussion because nothing good can come from it, but it seems to be civilized and made me think of something I haven't thought of.
@ GermanHarpist I think you could find ways to use TB in Jazz or classical playing. You could use TB to accent chord changes. Tongue lifts would probably work better. I agree TB is A better suited style for blues or any music that relies heavily on 1 & 4 chords in second position. Once you learn to TB then comes octaves. octaves are cool no matter what kind of muic you play.
I use TB more as a sound effect. I think the more you can do the more unique you become! I don't really understand why people argue over harping techniques. I think tongue slapping sounds cool! Its just another bullet to put in your gun. I mean you know what I mean
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Kingley
1424 posts
Jan 28, 2011
9:44 AM
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Speaking as a 99.9% tongue blocker, I think that acoustically tongue blocking is a pretty hard act to beat. Once you bring in amplification (playing with a hand held cupped mic and valve/tube amp) though the playing field can change (depending on the player of course).
Acoustically though I don't think any lip purser could beat that richness of tone that tongue blocking can give.
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hvyj
1187 posts
Jan 28, 2011
9:57 AM
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@GermanHarpist: "Doesn't that expose the real weakness of TB? That you really have to slap to make it sound good?"
Not true. Listen to Sugar Blue. He tongue blocks most of the time, uses tongue slaps relatively infrequently and (whether or not you like his style of playing) he has a great sound by any objective standard. So, one does NOT have to tongue slap to sound good TBing.
That being said, slaps may not be very useful for playing material other than certain styles of blues because the chords you get when you tongue lift/tongue slap are limited.
Personally, I find that the inability to "build" chords on a diatonic harp is more of a limiting factor than the lack of a 12 tone chromatic scale. I also find that it is possible to play a wider variety of musical material on a diatonic harp if you don't play a lot of chords because the single notes that are available often will work well in musical contexts where the chords available do not. And that remains so whether a player is TBing or LPing.
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hvyj
1188 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:07 AM
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@Kingley:"Acoustically though I don't think any lip purser could beat that richness of tone that tongue blocking can give."
I disagree. TBing produces richness of tone because in order to TB the player is FORCED to do certain things that are essential to good tone production or else it's simply not possible to TB successfully. And MOST players who LP don't do those things.
BUT, if a good LP player consciously employs certain techniques that a good TB player is forced to employ, it is my experience that substantially equivalent richness of tone can be achieved. The reality is that most LP players don't--but that doesn't mean good LP players CAN'T if they know what they are doing.
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KingoBad
591 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:09 AM
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Nice playing 7LimitJI. I loved your sound!
You have now made me depressed.
While my TB skills are improving (switching from pucker) I still have avoided some of the more subtle and deep bending with TB by switching back and fourth.
I still can't help but feel I take up resonance space with my tongue when I TB. Not to mention I feel like I choke my tone bending for the same reason.
I'm not even going to mention the problems with dips and more subtle articulation that I have mastered LP that I now have to relearn TB.
I have heard Adam live acoustically, and he has a monster sound while LP or TB.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 10:10 AM
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Kingley
1425 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:15 AM
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hvyj - Hmmmmm, sorry but I suspect you're wrong. Please feel free to prove me wrong by recording the boogie lick that 7LimitJi posted tongue blocked, with yourself playing it using lip pursing.
I do agree with you when you say "TBing produces richness of tone because in order to TB the player is FORCED to do certain things that are essential to good tone production or else it's simply not possible to TB successfully."
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harpdude61
706 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:19 AM
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Kingley
"Acoustically though I don't think any lip purser could beat that richness of tone that tongue blocking can give."
I'm not going to debate this or post video samples of great lip pursers playing acoustic. I upset a couple of people by proving a point in a similar thread.
I'm just curious what you base your assumption on?
I would love to hear the physics or mechanics of why a tongue blocker has a richer tone. I explained my embrochure in the other thread, talked about resonation, etc....someone please educate me as to why TB is better...or better yet explain why a purser cannot get a rich a tone.
Seems most lip pursers are open minded, fans of both styles and want to learn both (including me), while a lot of tongue blockers are hardcore, set in stone sure that their way produes a richer tone.
I just want someone that thinks blocking produces a richer tone to tell me why.
Maybe the only pursing tone you have heard is your own?
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 10:21 AM
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hvyj
1190 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:36 AM
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@KingoBad: "I still can't help but feel I take up resonance space with my tongue when I TB.'
You do. A lot of LP players do too. BUT, if a LP player can bend with the throat and articulate separation between notes by starting and stopping the diaphragm (like good TB players do) it is possible to play with the tongue on the floor of the mouth most of the time which makes for a larger and less obstructed oral resonance chamber than one gets TBing.
Now a TBer has the additional advantage of being able to get the holes of the harp into the mouth past the top and bottom teeth, which is not physiologically possible to do LPing. BUT, if a LP player TILTS the harp it is possible to get the holes of the harp into the mouth past the top teeth.
So, TBing gets the harp in the mouth past the top and bottom teeth, but with the tongue high in the middle of the oral cavity. A skilled LP player can get the harp in the mouth past the top teeth and with the tongue low on the floor of the oral cavity and out of the way. So, since these countervailing factors offset, this is ONE of the techniques a good LP player can employ to achieve substantially equivalent richness of tone as can be achieved TBing.
The other things TBing forces a player to do--drop and relax the jaw, enlarge and relax the oral resonance chamber, maintain an open unobstructed airway and produce and control airflow from the diaphragm, etc.--can be also done by a LP player IF THE LP PLAYER MAKES A CONSCIOUS EFFORT to do those things a TB player is forced to do. Most LP players don't. But it can be done and when it is, substantially equivalent richness of tone can be achieved.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 10:39 AM
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Kingley
1426 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:38 AM
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harpdude61- "Maybe the only pursing tone you have heard is your own? " I never lip purse (except for the blow bends on holes 8, 9, and 10). I live in an area that is populated by harmonica players that are 100% lip pursers. I am the only one who tongue blocks. All of the lip pursers (to a man/woman) ask me why they don't have a rich, deep tone like mine.
As to why tongue blocking (generally speaking) adds more fullness/richness to the tone/sound. The answer is for multiple reasons. Some of which are:
1. Tongue blocking (generally) forces the player to have a more open throat, thereby creating a wider cavity for the resonance of sound. Which in turn increase the richness/fullness of tone.
2. The "slaps" used by tongue blockers create a fuller sound by utilising chordal sounds to increase the fullness of the overall sound.
3. The use of octaves which creates a bigger fuller sound than the use of single notes.
As to Tongue blockers being "set in stone sure that their way produes a richer tone." Well considering that most tongue blockers purse at least some of the time (except maybe Dennis Gruenling and Mitch Kashmar). I'd have to say that it's based on personal experience by the players. Not on some kind of biased opinion as you seem to suggest.
My personal view is that for me 99.9% tongue blocking works for me (and has done for over 20 years). If 99.9% lip pursing works for you then that's good too. I don't really care about the "how you get there" just as long as you get "there". For me it's all about the music. The music will always be more important than any technique.
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hvyj
1191 posts
Jan 28, 2011
10:51 AM
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@kingley:"Hmmmmm, sorry but I suspect you're wrong. Please feel free to prove me wrong by recording the boogie lick that 7LimitJi posted tongue blocked, with yourself playing it using lip pursing."
Can't do it. There are certain things that can only be done effectively TBing and playing a boogie lick with tongues slaps/lifts is one of them. And 7LJI sounds great doing it.
But as far as equivalent TONE on the single note boogie licks, there are a few players I've heard on the forum who can get that LPing. i don't have recording capability or know how, and i don't consider myself to be the best example of anything, so I'm not suggesting that I'm the standard against which anyone's playing should be measured. But, for whatever reason, 7LJI's tone sounds stronger with the lifts than without, and, IMHO, the tone on the single note licks is not out of reach for a LP player with good technique.
EDIT: just saw your immediately preceding post. I agree with points 2 and 3. There are certain techniques/sounds that one can only get TBing. this is beyond question and it is the reason i am a mixed embouchure player even though i primarily LP. There's nothing like playing a split interval (octaves or otherwise) for sheer depth of tone and they are useful for playing all sorts of material.
But as to point 1, this can be accomplished LPing with conscious effort. And I still am of the firm opinion that equivalent richness of SINGLE NOTE TONE can be achieved LPing or TBing. But yes, certain techniques can only be employed TBing--and while lifts/slaps are one of those techniques and may be great for blues, lifts and slaps are of limited utility for playing many other styles of music.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 11:10 AM
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Kingley
1429 posts
Jan 28, 2011
11:14 AM
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hvyi - "But as to point 1, this can be accomplished LPing with conscious effort. And I still am of the firm opinion that equivalent richness of SINGLE NOTE TONE can be achieved LPing or TBing." I agree That's why I put "generally"
However the point that 7LimitJi was making was that with the embellishments that can be added via tongue blocking (slaps in this case). Cannot be rivaled by lip pursing as you quite rightly admit.
As I stated in my previous post though: "I don't really care about the "how you get there" just as long as you get "there". For me it's all about the music. The music will always be more important than any technique."
The music should always be more important than any technique.
If you listen to Todd Parrott for example, his playing is beautiful ( I think he is predominantly a lip purser) just as is the playing of Mitch Kashmar (tongue blocker) or John Nemeth (U-blocker). All three of these guys know hopw to play beautiful harmonica with full rounded tone. At the end of the day I'd say to anyone don't get to hung up on which technique to use. Get hung up on producing a beautiful sound, because that is what truly matters.
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harpdude61
707 posts
Jan 28, 2011
12:08 PM
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Kingley...I appreciate the good spirit with which this is discussed...and I agree ..good music is the bottom line. I am a huge fan of several pursers and blockers.
I will try to do something similar to 7limit while pursing this weekend. I'm sure it won't be as effective, but similar. I will also throw in a few things that pursers do that I have yet to hear blockers do...to be honest I would love to hear more tongue block effects/licks. This thread could be very educational to old and new players alike.
I do octaves and splits TB a lot. I use a lick that goes from 4/5 draw double stop pursed right to the 3/6 blow octave split. This type of switching works well for pursers. My embrochure is the same for the octave as for the double stop..just open very slightly and bring the tongue into play.
The one that is the most fun to debate however, is the single note tone of TB vs. LP. ..hvyj and myself have discussed embrochures before.
I shouldn't use the "vs." ...We are all on the same team here. I'm interested in the dynamics of all techniques whether I use them or not..and also a fan of the diatonic harmonica and it's players. I cannot imagine another instrument this small that goes soooo deep.
I've been playing 4 years and learn something every day. I'll bet you are still learning after 20.
I have questions about tongue blocking.
When you play a double stop or a chord, are you still blocking some holes?
Do most players block on the left side?
Do blow bends work well tongue blocked?
I'm very satisfied with my splits. Is it far from a 2/5 draw split to a block 2,3,4 and play 5 only. Seems like a slight nuance movement, but a lot of blockers look like they are playing out of the side of their mouth to me....I think that is why splits came fairly easy. Pursing is centered and so are my splits.
Respect to all styles!
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 12:11 PM
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Kingley
1430 posts
Jan 28, 2011
12:39 PM
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harpdude61 - "I am a huge fan of several pursers and blockers." Yeah me too! :-)
"I've been playing 4 years and learn something every day. I'll bet you are still learning after 20." You better believe it! You never stop learning. That's one of the things that keeps me playing harmonica.
"When you play a double stop or a chord, are you still blocking some holes?" Yes, I do. although not really often on a full chord. On a double stop I just tend to open the right side of my mouth a little more whilst still retaining the tongue block.
"Do most players block on the left side?" I'd say so. From my personal perspective, I always block to the left, except when playing hole 1, which I tend to switch between blocking left or right, depending on the sound desired (right side blocking seems to give a more bassy sound for some inexplicable reason in my experience)
"Do blow bends work well tongue blocked?" Yes absolutely. Although I personally find them easier to sustain and control playing them lip pursed on most occasions.
"Is it far from a 2/5 draw split to a block 2,3,4 and play 5 only" No not at all really. It just takes a little practice to get it.
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Shoulders
46 posts
Jan 28, 2011
12:53 PM
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Hi,
I switched to TB a few years ago and in my enthusiasm stopped lip pursing completely. I'm now trying to put LP back into my playing.
Harpdude here is my take on your questions, I learnt to TB with the air channel on the right of the tongue.
Yer, with double notes (which I still find quite difficult to get - practice practice ) I let my tongue move over a little and the second note starts .
Blow bends took a lot of work. I ended up pestering other players (Wes Weston and Grant Dermody were the main ones) to find out if it was actually possible. I played with my mouth shape and finally a bend popped out. Really frustrating for months..
Overbends came easily when I used a well set up harp (thanks to Joe Spiers for that) the work I put into the blow bends came in handy as its a similar mouth shape for overblows.
James
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Shredder
223 posts
Jan 28, 2011
1:10 PM
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Duane, I am a purser 99% of the time and TB on octives / splits as normaly done . The comment of LP being in the center of the mouth dosn't apply to me. I purse out of the area 1/2 way between the center of my mouth and the corner. I guess you could say even with your top "tush" tooth or... not the 2 middle teeth but the one to my right. Some times I have to move to the middle though.
On TB, I find I produce to much spit that fouls the reeds so I really don't like the style. And yes I'm one of the pursers that move the harp past the teeth on several applications.
Mike:)
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harpdude61
708 posts
Jan 28, 2011
3:39 PM
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SHoulders..That is interesting. I just can't relax correctly with the tongue to one side.
Hey Mike!I did not know anyone pursed other than dead center air flow. I am learning much from this thread...Yeah..,,anytime during my playing , if i bit down my top teeth would touch the coverplate while my bottom teeth would hit the comb since I play tilted....I'll try to play what the OP suggests pursing..It will fun be fun even if not that good. .sometime Saturday
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colman
20 posts
Jan 28, 2011
4:07 PM
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both are the way for blues,any time you can fattin` up the tone it`s gonna sound better.hey ! when you go from single note playing to slap it kind of like a accordian...
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Ant138
762 posts
Jan 29, 2011
2:23 AM
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For my personal preference its got to be slaps all the way.
I'm a fairly new Tongue blocker(7 months) after playing LP for almost 5 years, i can switch between the two but i find myself loving the sound of TBing more and more.
I think the slaps and pulls add a richness to my playing that nothing else can beat but having said that i play mostly old school blues so for that i think Tbing,slaps/pulls is certainly the way to go.
I don't think it works with every style of harp playing but for straight up Blues you just can't beat it:o)
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
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boris_plotnikov
431 posts
Jan 29, 2011
3:03 AM
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I was full time TB player before I started to use overbends. Now I play both depending on tune, phrase, but LP more often.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Greyowlphotoart
401 posts
Jan 29, 2011
3:17 AM
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@Boris Do you think you could play the Boogie lick above, as well LP as TB? Thanks
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harpdude61
709 posts
Jan 29, 2011
4:13 AM
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Ant138...Someone that plays as well as you and switched speaks well of the style of TBing. Do you still retain all of your pursing skills?
I'm into overbends like Boris. I'm sure some TBers can overblow, but not sure how well they can make the note full, vibrato, and bend up.
I'm working on a technique using 6 OB and 7 blow as a double stop in 2nd position.. WHen you go to the IV chord in slow blues it gives you a nasty root and flat 7th.
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Ant138
763 posts
Jan 29, 2011
4:17 AM
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@harpdude61 I'm just about to uplaod a Tongue Blocking V's Lip pursing Video in a minute on a new thread.
I can't help but LP because thats what i learnt first but now i've switched to TBing i can still switch to LP at a drop of a hat without any problems which hopefully the video will show.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
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7LimitJI
368 posts
Jan 29, 2011
5:32 AM
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Well !! No takers.
Guess tongue'ing roolz ;O)
@GH
"Which has little to do with the slaps but the missing self confidence when playing without slaps (just guessing here to make my point, hehe, sorry :)."
You're right. I was having to really concentrate to NOT play the slaps, the tone suffered, as I tensed up.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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boris_plotnikov
432 posts
Jan 29, 2011
7:01 AM
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Greyowlphotoart
Yes, but my bends will be preciser with LP.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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