|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
harmonicas are all tuned too high - ramblings
harmonicas are all tuned too high - ramblings
Page:
1
bandini
42 posts
Sep 26, 2026
12:18 PM
|
As BBQ Bob has constantly pointed out, playing too hard is a very common beginner harmonica problem. Oddly, though, the entire harmonica industry appears to have pivoted to compensate for beginners, because harmonicas are ALL tuned very high now - at least 443 generally, and sometimes a good deal higher.
So basically, if you want to play like Little Walter, Big Walter, Sonny Boy, etc. and you buy a Marine Band, you are not only using a compromised tuning scheme instead of Just Intonation, but you're also playing a harp that is considerably higher and shriller than the ones those dudes played.
There isn't a single available "professional" model that, rather than aimed at beginners who blow too hard, is aimed at more advanced players with good tone and breath control who want a classic sound. Still blows my mind.
Lately I've been getting my Seydel harps tuned to both Just Intonation AND having them tune it to 440, which to the best of my understanding is what was the norm during the 50s.
Hey, guess what? I'm in tune now. Whether it's to a backing track or an actual band, I'm no longer sharp as was always the case before, and is almost always the case when I hear a harmonica player these days. Almost EVERYONE is sharp, because they're playing harps tuned too high. Only the beginners will be in tune in this scenario.:)
I still find marine bands the most fun to play, but until they come up with a "50s style" Marine Band my only option for a harp in Just Intonation and 440hz is Seydel. I'm very grateful they're around. They last a long time playing on the street and they stay in tune really well.
But man, it would be fun to have a Marine Band in the right tuning... And it would be great to hear everyone who uses Marine Bands playing in tune...
|
Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3242 posts
Sep 27, 2026
7:41 AM
|
It’s easier to forgive sharp harps than ones tuned to pitch—you can only lower pitch with vocal resonance, except for Overblows . . .
I usually tune to 443, that’s not very sharp.
|
bandini
43 posts
Sep 27, 2026
4:20 PM
|
Gnarly, I'd be curious to see what you'd think if you did the test I did recently.
It's admittedly not easy to accomplish because you need a harp in 440:) I have a Seydel A harp in 440, and then also several other outtathebox harps - Marine Bands, Seydels all in A and all tuned higher, as is the norm.
If I punch up one of the great MCCD Backing tracks for instance and play along to it with each harp, it becomes very obvious which one is actually in tune. Ditto for most random songs I punched up.
Most musicians I've known tune to 440. I can see how less experienced harp players would pull flat on draw notes - I even have to watch that myself sometimes. But I definitely don't play consistently 3 degrees sharp, nor do most people I don't think, certainly not most pro level players.
The justification for this butchering of the Marine Band just doesn't ring true to me, try as I might.:) But I'm open to what y'all think. I could very easily be missing something.
And maybe I just play more softly than I'd realized?
|
bandini
44 posts
Sep 27, 2026
5:30 PM
|
It also occurs to me the more I think about it, that in blues music particularly, flat is preferable to sharp. Many blues singers sing slightly flat. Hardly ever do they sing slightly sharp in my experience.
Personally, I've believed for years that the reason classic blues sounds so much better than any other era is because they weren't in tune, They were out of tune in a *musical* way.
I don't think blues has ever recovered from being played in tune.:)
|
dougharps
2399 posts
Oct 01, 2026
4:11 PM
|
I will grant you that recently many harps I have bought have been tuned too sharp, with 444 and 445 being notably annoying. You would really have to play hard to bring that in tune!
I usually find 442 and 443 to be acceptable while playing compromised tuning. However, I am not trying to replicate traditional blues, and I play multiple musical genres.
If you are trying to replicate traditional blues you will need just intonation, which will sometimes sound flat on some notes. If you use instruments truly tuned to 440 you must use extremely light breath force or you will sound flat.
I think that when you listen to a lot of older blues recording you acclimate to what you hear, and you hear it as part of the music. I don't like instruments or voices to sound too sharp or too flat, but I accept modest variation with notes off of absolute pitch. Pitch corrected music is bland, monotonous, and unappealing to me.
Some traditional blues players reportedly used excessive force and some reportedly did not. Some players apparently would throw out instruments after abusing them playing hard after one show.
If you are playing along with old blues recordings you should take into account that there was considerable pitch variation on old recordings due to the recording technology at that time and variations in the speed of the disks being recorded.
----------
Doug S.
|
bandini
45 posts
Oct 03, 2026
7:38 AM
|
"If you use instruments truly tuned to 440 you must use extremely light breath force or you will sound flat."
Not at all trying to be contentious or snide, Doug (I know that gets lost in txt sometimes:)), but I appreciate your comment because it is the essence of the widely repeated justification for the cranking up of the harp tuning higher and higher. And I have a hard time getting my noggin around the logic.
Cause, there is, like, literally no historical evidence for this oft-repeated statement, that I can see. James Cotton was playing a harp tuned to 440. So was Sonny Boy. So was Butterfield. So was everyone in the 50s though 70s.
So, the idea that a 440 harp will make you sound out of tune unless you play super soft is a difficult one for me to actually verify.
Whereas it's tremendously easy to verify that playing a harp in 440 sounds in tune, whereas playing a harp in 444 sounds sharp. That is supported both by the mountain of historical evidence in the form of classic recordings and by my own direct experience.
That a beginner may pull flat with a 440 harp seems very likely. What DOESN'T seem likely is that the entire harmonica world would, all on their own, every single company, decide to crank the tuning up on EVERY model to accommodate these alleged beginners.
Yet that's what I'm told.
I find it similarly unlikely that an entire industry would pivot to compromised temperments, allegedly in order to accommodate players who play in multiple positions - a category of player widely represented on youtube but seldom encountered in the wild.
Yet that appears to be the case as well.
I appreciate y'all's engaging with my head scratchin' on this. It's hard for me to find anyone in "real life" who actually cares about such things.:)
|
harpwrench
1130 posts
Oct 04, 2026
6:53 PM
|
Do you understand that a just intonation harp tuned to 440 only has 4 notes tuned to 440? The thirds are quite flat, very noticeable when playing unison notes along with other instruments tuned to 440 in the real world. That's not even counting the 5/9 draw in 7 limit. Other notes are sharper. Also there's flattening with condensation in the real world, it's not just breath pressure. Maybe it's less on stainless reeds, I'm not sure because I don't mess with them. Lastly I have come across several NOS very old MB harps in my time of messing with them, and have yet to handle one that was tuned to 440 if you're talking about the 1 blow. Just because it was stamped into the cover doesn't mean that's how they were. Or maybe they were, but it was actually the thirds that were 440, which is about what they are when the 1 blow is 442.5-ish. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help you understand some reasons why they aren't tuned how you want them tuned.
----------
www.spiersharmonicas.com
High Performance Harmonicas
|
bandini
46 posts
Oct 05, 2026
8:18 AM
|
Thanks for chiming in, Joe - it's good to hear from someone who has an intimate knowledge of the marine band.:)
Yeah, it's an interesting related question: what are harps of any given era ACTUALLY tuned to as opposed to what they're advertised as?
I'm reminded of my early years in the world of bars and clubs and how disillusioned my young self was when I realized that the expensive bottles on the top shelf seldom contained what their labels indicated. Welcome to capitalism, kid.:)
Joe also mentioned flattening with condensation. I don't feel like I've noticed that with Seydels, so it may well be true that this happens more with bronze reeds that stainless steel, in which case the high tuning makes even *less* sense for harps with steel reeds.
I do recall that being the case with marine bands back in the day but that was before the combs were sealed - not sure if that would be a factor?
|
Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3243 posts
Oct 06, 2026
9:26 AM
|
Joe knows harmonica LOL
I just want to again suggest that YOU are the best person to improve your harp, since you are the one operating it.
I know, you are afraid of failure—
But tuning is simple, get an Xacto knife and remove material from the tip to raise and the rivet end to lower the pitch.
If at first, you don’t succeed, try try again.
You can always acquire the talents of a tech like myself. If you get completely buried, I am happy to help, but you are the best judge of when it’s right.
|
bandini
47 posts
Oct 06, 2026
11:54 AM
|
"I just want to again suggest that YOU are the best person to improve your harp, since you are the one operating it."
I appreciate the encouragement, my friend:), but a great deal of prior experience has now convinced me that Seydel is in fact the best person to improve my harp.:) Their version of a harp in 440 and just intonation is vastly superior to my many attempts at tuning. Boy, howdy have I tortured and ultimately murdered some perfectly good harps. No fear of failure here.:)
It's good to know one's strengths and limitations and much as i would love to be able to buy, say, a marine band and quickly and easily retune it, that skill has proved elusive for me.
Gapping, I've become quite good at, on the other hand.
|
bandini
48 posts
Oct 06, 2026
12:15 PM
|
"The thirds are quite flat, very noticeable when playing unison notes along with other instruments tuned to 440 in the real world. "
This is an interesting observation in light of the fact that slightly flat 3rds are one of the more essential elements of both blues and blues harmonica. One thing you don't want is the sound of being too sharp on that 3 hole draw... yuck.:)
Again: the idea of an entire industry pivoting to exclusively accommodate players playing unison lines... doesn't that sound a bit extreme to anyone else? Especially for a *harmonica*.:) I mean sure, that's some of the harp players out there, but I wouldn't say it's anything like the majority.
Then again I could be totally wrong about that. Maybe it's just my neck of the woods. Most of my real world encounters with harp in the form of actual paying customers and gigs are and always have been with people playing it in a blues/folk/rock/country setting.
|
harpwrench
1131 posts
Oct 06, 2026
2:45 PM
|
A 440 tuned harp has the thirds at around 437 and that's going to sound pretty flat in more contexts than unison lines. How about 3rd position and grabbing the 2-5 blow on the IV chord along with george smith
----------
www.spiersharmonicas.com
High Performance Harmonicas
|
bandini
49 posts
Oct 06, 2026
4:46 PM
|
Joe, correct me if I'm wrong - I may very well be mistaken about this - but as far as I can gather, ALL the harps up to 1985 were tuned to 440, as far as the "official" info states (allowing that there were inconstancies that may have occurred along the way).
I only got that from internet perusing, so if I'm misinformed, someone please pull my coat.:)
Last Edited by bandini on Oct 06, 2026 6:12 PM
|
bandini
50 posts
Oct 06, 2026
5:05 PM
|
Also if anyone is aware of which notes are used to determine frequency (as Joe mentioned above, is it 1 blow? 3 draw?) and when/if that has ever changed at hohner I'd be curious to know more about that history.
|
Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3244 posts
Oct 06, 2026
8:11 PM
|
Joe is the guy that turned me on to the iStroboSoft app, and it makes tuning much easier.
I set it to 432-433 (depending) and either ET (for chromatic harps) or Just Major (under temperaments).
Of course, I also use my ear, since that’s what’s going to make the big difference.
|
bandini
51 posts
Oct 08, 2026
11:08 AM
|
Rambling further on this topic for anyone who cares.:)
So, I was playing along to a cut on one of my favorite records - "Winds are blowing" on Johnny Shines's "Too Wet To Plow" - and there it is again: I'm way sharp on a modern harp, but perfectly in tune with the 440 harp.
Now, when I play the modern harp you wouldn't necessarily notice it being sharp unless you were really trying to hear it, I don't think. I automatically compensate by pulling a little flatter on the draw notes. I make it work and it doesn't sound horrible or anything.
But the difference when I play the 440 harp is immediately noticeable, And then going BACK to the modern harp, the dissonance is clearer.
Incidentally, I have the same experience when I play a Just Intonation tuned harp vs a compromised tuning. It's a "pleasing", musical quality that makes the modern sound harsh and tiring.
Not to drift too far afield, but it occurs to me that I could also be talking about LED vs Incandescent, analog vs digital or organic vs "AI".
It seems obvious that the modern only has value when it is built on a solid traditional foundation. Remove that foundation - or get the modern to perceive the traditional as some sort of regressive "threat" - and you have... harsh. Shrill. Depthless. Soulless. Sexless. Etc.
Basically you have what remains of our modern world. Dissonant. At war with itself. Duped into Force when harmony is the natural way.
Did it all start in 1985?:) Assuming I have the info right on when the shift occurred, what was it that prompted the shift? A huge increase in folks playing fiddle tunes, multiple positions and unison lines? I guess that's possible - there are harmonica scenes all over the world I'm only dimly aware of.
Anyway, I dig this site (or what's left of it:) because I'm interested in modern music - not recreations of the traditional. But a modern that is built on a solid traditional foundation is the idea.
Part of that foundation IMO should be recognizing the natural laws of music and acknowledging that in our obsessive need to "tinker" with everything, we modernists often fix what ain't broke.
To my ears, that's what we've done with the marine band - we've fixed some things, but we've also tinkered with what ain't broke. In our obsession with individual notes being in tune (the macro parallel being identity politics, right?:)) we've lost harmony and musicality.
Is that part of what happened to live blues? Is it - at least in *part* - so over because listening to people playing traditional music in compromised tunings through digital effects pedals under LED lights is just not all that compelling to most, for subtle, instinctive, vibrational reasons they may not even be conscious of?
Anyway, this is the stuff I ruminate on over the morning coffee.
|
Post a Message
|
